Pauls FP - 170 and shoulders

[VGB]

Incidentally something I have discovered more and more over the past year or so, is that no one understands the 170 from Board or online teaching descriptions. At some point I shall have to find the time to talk about different power applications between the respective casting techniques and how to use the body to it happen. That information is not currently available anywhere to my knowledge, not even on Sexyloops. For example experiencing shoulder pain with the 170 quite possibly means that it is not being done correctly. Morsie for example is using it to *reduce pressure* on his shoulder. So I know he is doing it correctly! If you can throw a Frisbee then you can 170. Of course it's possible that shoulder injuries prevent the 170, even executed solely as an elbow straightening movement.

Paul 170.jpg (23.57 KiB) Viewed 1085 times

Hi Paul

I would assume that for tracking, you are looking at the elbow and hand being in-plane with the shoulder in your picture. My elbow goes no closer than 30 degrees inboard, my hand about 45 degrees. This is with nothing in my hand, carrying a rod will make that worse but I can throw a Frisbee in the normal fashion. How would you teach in this situation?

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

Hi mate,

If I understand correctly you can 170 frisbee style off the close to horizontal? Ie by separating both elbows late in the stroke? That’s how I initially teach the 170.

I come through at about this angle…

What happens if you turn your shoulders further around ie beyond the target line?

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

Hi Paul

I can frisbee in the horizontal plane, forward and back. I tried to over rotate to correct the tracking error but I could never get consistent results. My own solution was to lean back limbo style on the backcast and not extend the elbow until after flipping the wrist. My tracking is good enough to get frequent leader strikes on the rod in both directions but it’s taken me a long time to get there.

Regards

Vince

PS some cracking photos for the family album

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Paul,

I assume that you want your shoulders and elbows are in line with your rear target?

How do you get to that position without shoulder or torso rotation that will show up in the trailing flyline?

And, if you just begin in alignment...

If you don't start to apply power until you achieve that alignment, are you getting everything from just straightening the rod arm, hauling, and body lean?

And, finally... how heavy of tackle do you think can be handled this way?

Thanks!

[Paul Arden]

Hi Vince, yes that is a solution and one I also use. Not everyone can arch their back. Certainly I do.

Hi Gary,

Sorry can’t copy and paste because I’m doing solar stuff in the dark. Long story.

1) yes but my hand is not in front of my eye but left of my left ear. I can arch the back to make it more vertical.

2) I move the body out of the way. The hand should ideally travel straight between targets. I move the body out the way on the backcast and then back in behind the rod on the forward cast. Coming over the top with the elbow helps straighten things on the backcast (forward cast too, and I now understand why doming in this direction matters). I practise with a big windscreen washer cast.

3. Yes obviously to get into any position some force has occurred. But it’s not the big driving force. The big driving force on the backcast is straightening both elbows doming over with the rod hand. Key really is to get into that position before the hit and you can pause from time to time to check where you are.

5. 12WT no problem. T38. It’s easier because the rod butt is tucked into the forearm, palm is on top of the rod, V-grip. This is how I make all backhand shots with tackle of all descriptions. It’s just a more powerful move for me and the line speed is the highest I can generate. It’s much more powerful that OSD backcasts.

Cheers, Paul

[RSalar]

Paul -- is the final part of the stroke a powerless "flail" or are you adding power with your wrist? I find that the flail or flop or loose wrist thing doesn't work for me. I have to consciously make the rod tip move -- like flicking paint of a brush. --Ron

[Paul Arden]

Hi Ron, no I don’t flick the wrist, just dome over with the forearm, reaching out to target; the rod leaves the forearm naturally. I don’t think I can force the wrist as fast as I can flail, but I am conscious to keep tension out of the wrist, so I must be “flailing”

A very common mistake I see is to try to aim the loop higher by using the hand path at the end of the stroke. With the 170 trajectory is set by the tip/line path up to the position you see in the first post. After this it’s all about giving it speed.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

My own solution was to lean back limbo style on the backcast and not extend the elbow until after flipping the wrist.

A couple of things here Vince. I don’t understand the bit about extending the elbow after flipping the wrist. My cast is a rotation/opening of the elbow and the wrist does what it wants as a release. I don’t consciously do anything there and never have. Of course the rod butt is initially tucked into the forearm.

This cast does not have to be thrown behind, it can be also thrown in front. Ie while facing the target, closed stance, cross-body to left ear (right hander) and deliver with the back of the hand forwards, like laying it on a plate. If I have a strong downstream wind and I’m in the true left then this is what I do.

As a backcast, I don’t always track with a vertical rod plane. If I want to keep the loop low then it’s almost exactly like throwing a frisbee. To avoid kick at loop straight I aim 1” above the target.

The reason I teach this is that it fully opens up backhand delivery shots. If you have a on-shoulder quartering headwind on the flats or reservoir or even if standing on the front of a skiff with your mate poling behind you, then this cast is accurate, fast, and there is no risk of fly/rod tip collisions. I find leading with the palm on a cross-body shot very uncomfortable.

Here in the jungle I teach it to all guests. Otherwise there are times when they can’t take shots or make safe casts. So irrespective of if they later move on to connect two “back-to-back stopless delivery casts”, as in the full-blown 170, used as a backhand delivery I think it is essential and opens up more water.

No doubt I’ll have to teach this to Mika and Satu, Gary. They’ll be using 10WTs. I’ll try to make a video.

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

Hi Paul

A couple of things here Vince. I don’t understand the bit about extending the elbow after flipping the wrist. My cast is a rotation/opening of the elbow and the wrist does what it wants as a release. I don’t consciously do anything there and never have. Of course the rod butt is initially tucked into the forearm.

I have to open my hand and relax my forearm and biceps once my arm starts to straighten, otherwise it is painful. This is why I followed the Bernd/Mike technique of pulling down on the elbow to accelerate the rod at the the end of the stroke. The only other way to stop it hurting is to push the hand inboard which f'ks the tracking.

As a backcast, I don’t always track with a vertical rod plane. If I want to keep the loop low then it’s almost exactly like throwing a frisbee. To avoid kick at loop straight I aim 1” above the target.

It's just a drill for me, an exercise in learning new skills much like casting with my weaker hand or DH. I have no practical use for the 170 cast in fishing, so I accept the leader strike on the rod as a sign of good tracking and not a reason to throw myself on the floor

Regards

Vince

[RSalar]

Hi Ron, no I don’t flick the wrist, just dome over with the forearm, reaching out to target; the rod leaves the forearm naturally. I don’t think I can force the wrist as fast as I can flail, but I am conscious to keep tension out of the wrist, so I must be “flailing”

A very common mistake I see is to try to aim the loop higher by using the hand path at the end of the stroke. With the 170 trajectory is set by the tip/line path up to the position you see in the first post. After this it’s all about giving it speed.

Cheers, Paul

Hi Paul,

That's very interesting. because yesterday for the first time I started to get nice tight loops from my 170 back cast. And the only thing I changed was that I specifically focused on thrusting the tip of my rod "forward" (in the direction of the outgoing back cast) at the end of the stroke, kind of like the previous board discussion where John explained the motion like pushing a book of matches onto a shelf above you on the delivery. When I do the domed flail move I get a big wide loop with very little power. I think it would be very instructive if could take a few more still pictures of you holding a fly rod (or just the butt if indoors). I'd be especially interested in seeing the final position of the rod at the end of the 170 back cast and your arm/body position at the point, both from your front and from the side. I'm assuming from the front your hands are as far apart as possible with your arms outstretched -- but were is the rod pointing? Has it flopped down to the water; is it aiming at your imaginary bell target; or is aimed elsewhere?

Keep up the good work. You're styling in those pictures ... maybe someday one will end up on the cover of GQ Magazine!

Cheers, Ron