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Weight transfer/ sequential blocking

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VGB
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Re: Weight transfer/ sequential blocking

#71

Post by VGB »

I returned to Ulriks hauling study for the final observation ( my bold and underline):

The results also indicate that the coordination of rod and hauling movements should be adapted to line length, where increased rod and line hauling speed is used for longer lines.

In general, this suggests that casting movements need to be changeable and adjusted to current circumstances to optimize rod and line movements.
Thinking a bit more on definitions. I would suggest that technique refers to the cast e.g Spey, roll, overhead distance, overhead to target. Form could possibly be energy efficient movement that reduces the prospect of injury, leading to an idealised and measurable outcome?

Regards

Vince
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Paul Arden
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Re: Weight transfer/ sequential blocking

#72

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Vince,

I was thinking this… For me I would go with technique being small focused actions/interactions and form being the big fuzzy picture.

Significant differences there. What we need to do is apply them and see what works best.

Cheers, Paul
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VGB
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Re: Weight transfer/ sequential blocking

#73

Post by VGB »

Paul Arden wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 8:01 am I was thinking this… For me I would go with technique being small focused actions/interactions and form being the big fuzzy picture.
Hi Paul

Your technique sounds more like patterns to me but it’s subjective and we could do with removing the fuzzy bits ;)

Regards

Vince
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jarmo
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Re: Weight transfer/ sequential blocking

#74

Post by jarmo »

Walter wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:28 pm In some cases they can overlap as well.
Good point, and they can overlap in many ways.

In fact, the correct "final" sequence I stated above should have indicated overlap: forearm&wrist-wrist.
Paul Arden wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:09 pm Regards the question, I look for weight shift coming to a conclusion and the “buffering” travelling up the body. So weight transfer finishes first. The body then continues to rotate. That halts. The shoulder continues on and that in turn halts. Passing the energy transfer to the the forearm which then blocks. The final movement is the flip of the wrist. I describe it to be - and imagine it as - a “sequential stop”. Like dominoes.
So, using the weird notation I introduced above, I would read this as follows:

weight-torso-shoulder-forearm-weight-torso-shoulder-forearm&wrist-wrist.

If this is the case, then wrist is different from the others: its start happens simultaneously with the stop of the previous stage. This makes sense, and is what I wanted to ask.

I just had an OSD practise session. Tracking cast a great shadow over the entire experience. For me, the question is: how do you start from closed technique and proceed to a body-centered open technique while maintaining tracking. For me, tracking trumps everything else.

So perhaps I will start re-reading one of those tracking discussions.

Thanks!
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Re: Weight transfer/ sequential blocking

#75

Post by Paul Arden »

I was having this conversation with Mark yesterday. Let me ask you the same question I asked Mark…

Ok so let’s apply to roll cast. Caster sets up his D. Then for his delivery he chops down from the elbow with no wrist. Or pushes up by straightening the elbow for that matter. We say “ah ha! What you need to do pull down like pulling on a bell rope and then flick like you are flicking water off a brush” (or whatever).
What we are trying to achieve is to change his stroke from what it is to coming forward and down with elbow/hand, blocking the forearm and flicking the hand/wrist over.
Are we changing form or technique?
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Re: Weight transfer/ sequential blocking

#76

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Jarmo,

For me the idealised movement is this:

weight-> weight&torso-> weight&torso&shoulder… weight stops, torso and shoulder carries on… Torso stops & forearm starts and shoulder continues… Forearm stops. Wrist Flips. *

For me the shoulder doesn’t block. And for me the wrist doesn’t move until forearm blocks.

From closed to open. I start weight front foot closed. As I lengthen the line the weight moves to (and stays) on the back foot. When I reach my carry limitation for this technique I switch stance and start using weight shift.

Of course I’m fishing and going to make a long cast I start in Open Stance.

Cheers, Paul

*sorry edited above sequence!
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Re: Weight transfer/ sequential blocking

#77

Post by VGB »

Hi Paul

Under the definitions I suggested you would be changing form because roll cast is the technique.

In looking at form, I would like to objectivise it with measurable outcomes such as tip path. There’s a myriad of body combinations to achieve that outcome but some are more energy efficient, all are driven by constraints. We should highlight form that are likely to cause injury and steer towards movements that minimises the use of weaker muscles and joints early in the cast. I would like to see those objectives conform to SMART criteria:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMART_criteria

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Vince
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Re: Weight transfer/ sequential blocking

#78

Post by Paul Arden »

I think we see that similarly then. In the past I would have said technique. But after the Tennis article if that’s the way to analyse then it’s form.

I also wrote,

Form could be the overall silhouette and technique variations within. I do change form if this is the definition. Indeed I would argue that is the core change that makes someone go from being an average caster to a highly proficient caster. Or to look at it another way, we give someone an effective throwing action or better pattern/coordination to… assist their technique?

I’m not sure but I’m sure we can find suitable agreement and dare I say it get some agreed definitions and then use specific examples to get everyone on the same page. That might save years of circular discussions and misunderstandings :D

Separating technique from form is commonly done in other sports. So I assume there is value in this. For me I would go with technique being small focused actions/interactions and form being the big fuzzy picture.

Good form: bent knees, feet apart for stability, action from the ground up (or body centric), shoulder/elbow/wrist started in sequence and finished in sequence, blocking the forearm/body to flip the wrist. That to me is the essence of good casting and it’s all form.

Position and Pattern!

Mark wrote, Form is fuzzy, technique is focussed on adaptation within it. Fine by me.

Maybe that’s the start of a consensus.

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Weight transfer/ sequential blocking

#79

Post by Paul Arden »

Two discussions here. So if I put them together using the tennis article terminology. (And that’s debatable). It would be that the body sequence being described to Jarmo is that of form and not technique.

Personally I would have called it technique up to yesterday. Any advantages or disadvantages in this? I don’t know.

But that’s the big fuzzy outline.

Specifically when you look at grip? Or even to look specifically at how to shift weight? Is this now technique? In fact I’m not even sure what technique is now. Is it all the small actions/interactions coming together in a very focussed manner? Ie within the big picture.

So we change someone’s technique by adjusting how they turn the rod over. But we change their form when we change pattern? I think that’s kind of what we are saying.

Going for a swim. I’ll be thinking about form and technique. And Snakehead.

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Weight transfer/ sequential blocking

#80

Post by VGB »

I’m not there with you yet, “fuzzy” would keep my inner engineer awake at night. If I look at Jason’s book, I see in the chapter list a high level header, each cast is a technique made up of modules and sub modules. The way that those modules and sub modules interact and overlap are the nuts and bolts of form. The advantage of this structure is that the reference material has already been written and illustrated and we don’t have to reinvent the wheel.

Regards

Vince
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