Arc to narrow

[bartdezwaan]

Hi Paul,

I am watching your video’s and they are brilliant!
You say that to narrow of a casting arc causes tailing loops.
If only the casting arc is to narrow would that not cause an upside down loop?
I suppose the whole tip path would be concave.

Cheers, Bart

[bartdezwaan]

Maybe I should have thought it over before posting.
I guess the unloading of the rod already does not make it only concave

[Paul Arden]

Hi Bart,

I can't remember what I said in the video but I usually qualify it with the statement "the arc is too narrow - for the bend in the rod". Under these circumstances, mostly the tip path is usually a saucer shape which puts a transverse wave in the fly line. However...

To answer your question - yes and no. I have seen both. In fact there are three possible outcomes; 1) tailing loop, 2) inverted loop - which may or may not form an overhand knot in the fly line - and 3) a fly line/ fly rod collision.

Which of the first two occurring depends on the path that the rod tip follows in relation to the fly line path. If the tip simply curves upwards you get the inverted loop. If the tip first dips down below the line path and then rises we get the tailing loop. 3) is simply either 1 or 2 with loop plane and rod(/casting) plane being aligned. For the overhand knot to occur it's a combination of inverted loop and a collision.

I think that's mostly about right, but also probably too much information for the video!

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

I guess the unloading of the rod already does not make it only concave

If you mean counter-flex I agree, but the fly leg can still travel through below the rod tip and result in an inverted loop. It's easy to perform with the rod.

I've been spending some time this week practising the Italian Curve Cast that I can't pronounce. It's basically a horizontal tailing loop that causes the fly to flip back over to the casting side. It also appeared on the Board about 18 years ago via Jeff Barefoot when he wrote his casting planes article. The interesting thing about this, is that I've been throwing every kind of tailing loop imaginable

Cheers, Paul

[Lasse Karlsson]

Tails come from a dip in the tippath caused by a faulty acceleration.
Concave, saucer shaped and all other smooth tippaths does not cause a tail. But man it appears to be an uphill battle

Too narrow a casting arc/angle does not in itself cause a tail, and stating for the amoubt of bend doesnt qualify it either unless you're taking a test and have to say it.

Have you thrown the uoside down loop with a tail yet Paul?

Cheers
Lasse

[Boisker]

I guess the unloading of the rod already does not make it only concave

If you mean counter-flex I agree, but the fly leg can still travel through below the rod tip and result in an inverted loop. It's easy to perform with the rod.

I've been spending some time this week practising the Italian Curve Cast that I can't pronounce. It's basically a horizontal tailing loop that causes the fly to flip back over to the casting side. It also appeared on the Board about 18 years ago via Jeff Barefoot when he wrote his casting planes article. The interesting thing about this, is that I've been throwing every kind of tailing loop imaginable

Cheers, Paul

Could you describe how to make the cast Paul? I had a look but couldn’t find it on the board... made trickier without knowing the name of the cast

[Paul Arden]

Yes but faulty acceleration doesn’t cause tails only either Lasse. It also causes open loops, tracking errors, stalled loops - in fact you could argue that every casting fault comes down to faulty acceleration, or better still incorrect application of force.

Saying that a tail is caused by a dip in the tip path doesn't work for me. After all the tip dips below the line path at the end of the stroke to form a loop. If it doesn't it forms a collision. Instead of dip I've used the word "buckle".

Anyway we both understand it. It's just a question of words.

Upside down tailing loops are going to be very hard. I’ll give it a go.

I’ll have to dig it out Boisker

Cheers,, Paul

[Paul Arden]

Yes I can throw upside down tailing loops. Using the tip section of the rod, pointing downwards. My best ones were standing up a ladder.

Cheers, Paul

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Paul... is "svirgolato" the term you are looking for?

If so, I don't get the horizontal tailing loop part. I kept trying that... and it made things quite difficult.

It could be that I am no making the cast correctly, but I get the kick over with a rather attractive, although big and rounded, vertical loop!

It is a very handy cast for fishing.

[Paul Arden]

Yes Gary, and hmm well that 's odd. I get it by:

1) horizontal casting plane, low backcast - backcast is placed significantly off shoulder so we can break 180
2) pulling the rod in towards the body at the start of the stroke
3) horizontal tailing loop (spiked force application) pushing out towards the target.

The result, when it happens correctly, is that the loop tails horizontally, the fly cuts in away from the target on the opposite side of the rod leg, and as the tailing loop finally unrolls the fly cuts back across and lands on-side.

In other words it hooks a fly on shoulder, from a loop plane and the rod plane being on shoulder. I can do similar with corkscrew and snap-curves but I've seen this done so well that I want to master it!

Cheers, Paul