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understanding tails: finishing the haul too soon

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Richard
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understanding tails: finishing the haul too soon

#1

Post by Richard »

Hi all,

I am trying to wrap my head around the 'finishing the haul' too soon cause of tailing loops as explained in this video [1] at 2'06''.

Paul says:
"If we’re to finish the haul [before the line is …] before the rod tip is traveling at it’s maximum speed, which is when it’s unbend and passing the straight position, if we were to finish the haul before that, the line is gonna travel quicker than the rod tip, the rod tip is gonna rise and that’s also gonna throw a tail for us".

Am I right to understand it as follows?
During the casting stroke the rod is bend as a result of moving it and the mass of the flyline being forced in alternate direction than the rod is moving [2]. If the haul is stopped too soon (before the the rod is stopped and bend in the other direction), the line will 'shoot' too soon, countering the force that was pulling the flyline and therewith decreasing the bend of the rod. The rod tip and the rod leg will thus slightly lift, while the fly leg maintains its course and thus tangles into the rod leg.

Any help is appreciated.

Best,

Richard


[1]
[2] Sorry, this is the best way I could describe that the flyline wants to move downward (gravity) and in the direction of the previous casting stroke.
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Paul Arden
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Re: understanding tails: finishing the haul too soon

#2

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Richard,

Yes I think that is more or less right. I would add a couple of things. The rod tip accelerates through the stop and reaches maximum speed approximately as the rod is fully straight, it then starts to decelerate to the rebent position we call Maximum CounterFlex.
7DEAD9D3-503D-4266-848D-221C14DB311C.jpeg
So normally we would haul to the straight position we call RSP or Rod Straight Position.

The line is travelling at the speed of the haul plus the speed of the rod tip.

Finishing the haul significantly before RSP will remove load from the rod, the tip will rise briefly and the characteristic wave in the fly leg which results in a tail is created.

I sometimes see this with experienced casters; I mostly see it when someone is first learning to double haul.

We actually now know however, that this is not the whole story, and it’s actually quite possible to finish the haul significantly before RSP and not get a tail. For example we can see it time and again with the 170 style distance cast. In this case, I think, it’s because the rod butt is angled so far away from the fly leg’s path, that even though load is removed from the rod the rod tip still curves away from the line path and the loop doesn’t tail. But we do need to study it more.

So finishing the haul before the rod tip decelerates can be one of the causes but it’s not always the case. Although I suppose “finishing the haul too soon” always applies!

It’s this phenomenon that Alejandro, Aitor and Mark used to demonstrate the effect of early/late tails in their video. Maybe someone has a link for that?

Thanks,
Paul
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Paul Arden
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Re: understanding tails: finishing the haul too soon

#3

Post by Paul Arden »

And welcome to the Board, Richard :D
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: understanding tails: finishing the haul too soon

#4

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

Stopping the haul before RSP (well letting go of the line to be honest)




Aitors clips can be found here:


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Re: understanding tails: finishing the haul too soon

#5

Post by Paul Arden »

Good post Lasse, thanks.

How would you explain the early haul conclusion causing a tail and sometimes not?

It was that 170 video of you in Scotland that really threw a spanner in the works of hauling up to RSP. It’s still not something we’ve really discussed deeply but I know with my Snakehead Shot my haul conclusion and shoot is fractionally after the beginning of the Stroke and nowhere near the end. Maybe it doesn’t tail because we are shooting line?

You’ve asked a difficult question here Richard :D

Cheers, Paul
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Re: understanding tails: finishing the haul too soon

#6

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

If peak haul velocity happens at the same time as the rod tip happens to be at a point in the rotation where it won't rise, its very difficult to make a tail, so early haul and a short rotation in a short stroke doesn't matter if the haul ends late enough in the tippath.

And if you let go of the line, the rodtip can't really cause much drama to the line can it? So the stroke ends when the line is release 😉

You need to film the snakehead shot with a release light 🙂

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Lasse
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Re: understanding tails: finishing the haul too soon

#7

Post by Paul Arden »

That’s a great idea. Can you send me a photo of yours? I can try to build one from some fairy lights. :pirate:
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Re: understanding tails: finishing the haul too soon

#8

Post by Richard »

Hi Paul and Lasse,

Thank you for your clarifying comments. I don’t speak casting talk fluently, so I need a bit more time to ponder on the meaning and implication of your words.

I wasn’t aware that sometimes pre-release does not lead to tailing loops. I have been struggling with tailing loops on the double haul back cast, but not forward cast. For my exam, I hid that flaw, by opening up my backcast (more rotation). It was only after my exam that people told me that my double haul was uneven: long and smooth on the forward cast, quick and abrupt on the backcast. When I manage to perform a more balanced haul, the tailing loop disappears, even when I do not open up my back cast.

I guess this is in line with what Lasse is saying, because when I open up my back cast, the unloading of the rod through pre-release is negated by my arm still loading the rod. Maybe this also explains the 170 style ‘anomaly’. The release of the line would unload the rod, but because of the speed with which the rod is rotated, that effect is negated.

Best,

Richard
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Re: understanding tails: finishing the haul too soon

#9

Post by Richard »

Ps: Hahaha, I’m now in the field and because of what both of you said, able to replicate my faulty tail haul on demand! Amazing!
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Re: understanding tails: finishing the haul too soon

#10

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Richard, that’s great :D

About 3 minutes into this video https://www.sexyloops.com/flycast/fishi ... ance-cast/ I talk about hauling to a fully straightened elbow, ie hand and arm fully straightened in front directly opposite the backcast. That will fix your tailing problem for sure. And if it doesn’t then just start the haul later, say as the rod butt passes the perpendicular. Since the haul always finishes with a fully straight arm on a distance cast then all you have to adjust is the starting time. The faster you can make your haul, the later in the stroke you start.

Also and I really think this is a big thing, the haul is not something you add to the cast, it becomes the controlling part of the cast. It controls timing and the rest of the cast is fitted to work with the haul. So when you cast don’t think about the rod hand, instead think about the acceleration of the haul and finishing both back and forward haul at full arm extension directly away from the target (or rod hand). When I mention this I always mention that one side of the body is governed by the opposite side of the brain, so in effect you need to use the other side of your brain :p

That’s what I would suggest anyway. Those abrupt hauls can definitely be the cause of tails!

Cheers, Paul
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