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Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

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John Waters
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Re: Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

#311

Post by John Waters » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:20 am

I am very focused on the need to practice segmentation, Paul. With sighting, you need to train to identify your correct sighting reference point for distance measurement, before you practice sight casting. No point seeing the fly but be unsure of the frame of reference in which that sight point occurred.

John

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James9118
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Re: Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

#312

Post by James9118 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:21 am

jarmo wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:13 am

Still, I may well do it, I might even do it on purpose. There are a couple of reasons. First, I like the initial tension it adds. Second, if I want to have any body speed during a relatively short stroke, I do not like to start from standstill.

Are you suggesting this would cause the tailing tendency?
Hi Jarmo,

Again, this is my opinion - others may disagree:

Where I see your body move forward in that cast is still when you have plenty of fly-leg left in the back cast, i.e. as the loop is still propagating backwards. You really shouldn't have to be 'tensioning' at this point the change of momentum in the fly-leg (as it runs into the rod leg) should do this for you.

As such, when I think you should first start moving your weight you've almost completed that movement and look to be stood flat footed and still. You then make the forward cast purely with your arms.

This in itself does not cause the tail. The tail comes from a 'whump' of power in the middle of your casting stroke, generated by your arms. I think if you waited to make the body movement, in fact pushing backwards when your weight is coming forward, it would be easier to develop a smooth, flowing forward cast without the thump of power.

Regards, James

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Paul Arden
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Re: Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

#313

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:40 pm

Sorry for adding yet another branch to this discussion :cool:

John, how do you go from hover trajectory to delivery trajectory? Do you make a defined trajectory change on the final backcast or do you simply lower the forward trajectory?

Years ago when I watched Steve Rajeff throw 78/80 in Norway I thought it pretty obvious his final backcast was totally different to his previous backcasts. For me it seemed that he was making an angle change to throw a higher backcast. Something else I found interesting was the change of pace in this final backcast... In fact I’ll write to him and ask what he does. It’s certainly something I’ve played with since then.

Thanks,
Paul
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John Waters
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Re: Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

#314

Post by John Waters » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:40 am

Hi Paul,

Unless conditions force me to direct my false casts parallel to the water or above, I want to direct each forward false cast on a decline, below the horizontal. That means my delivery is just a follow through from the final false cast. When I have judged the distance through sighting the fly or, when sighting is not an option, just that sense of having the correct length, I have one or two more false casts at a faster tempo then deliver. I tend to just lower the rod tip in the delivery. I think tempo is often understated as a fundamental of accurate casting. My take on tempo is that in the pre-delivery false cast, I want to optimise the tension on the rod tip by ensuring the line is extra taut, i.e. little or no sag in the back cast. As I said in a post to Jarmo, if the backcast has sag, your accuracy will suffer. That statement is not an absolute because you can still hit your target with a backcast that does not maximise tension on the rod tip, but like a lot of 1%'ers, they always seem to impact when the pressure is on. I want my rod tip under tension on every cast but I want my line to be more taut for the final false cast and delivery. That requirement for me means I will often not allow the line to fully straighten. With heavy gear eg. when casting the World Championship ICSF fly accuracy event with a 38 gram line, I rarely have the line straighten fully, or pause between the backcast and front cast. Pausing to allow the line to straighten is not an essential, it is a guideline only. With lighter gear eg the 5 weight MED in the Trout Accuracy, I want the leader to straighten when judging distance but I will trade off a full line turnover and pause against tempo and trajectory any day once I have set my line length. A steep, high tempo backcast also enhances my chances of delivering the fly first to the target. I minimise translation for accuracy casting, I want to rotate the rod tip as early as possible in the stroke. Some advocate the \\\\\/ stroke, but it is not my preference.

That raises the aspect of rod type for accurate casting. Stiff rods with soft tips win my vote every time.

Many do things differently but that is my take on it.

The best light line fly accuracy caster I have seen was Rodney Foy, an Australian caster. His ability to judge line length in the air was exemplary and he has cast more perfect accuracy scores, across all events, than anyone I know. His stroke was precise: - short arc, pronounced up and down movement of the elbow, angled trajectories, single haul with taut return on the delivery and tight, fast loops. In my view, a textbook casting action for precision casting. The second best I have seen was a Canadian who moved to Oz in the 60's, John Lancaster. Same stroke, same hit rate, neither coincidence or luck, just great technique. John used 8 foot glass rods for events where the hoops were up to 13 metres and 8 foot 6 inch rods for events with hoops out to 17 metres. As a wise man once said, the only thing that changes is the terminology.

Be interesting to hear what Steve says in response to your question. There is no better.

John

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Re: Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

#315

Post by jarmo » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:19 am

Greetings everyone.

The following comments are all related to tracking, fortunately, but the first ones are more relevant.

First, controlling loop size when extending non-haul carry in closed stance. This is related to tracking, since closed stance gives basically perfect tracking out of the box.
John Waters wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:58 pm
I suggest you extend your translation by extending your elbow movement on the backcast further. That is best done by lifting the elbow further above and behind your shoulder. It is just an extension of what you are doing in the shorter cast. It will improve the trajectory of your backcast at longer distances (it drops too far whilst it extends) and will also extend the hand path on your forward cast allowing a later block and faster loop speed.
I doubt lifting the elbow behind the shoulder is doable. I used to lift weights, so some joints are as stiff as a board, even though I stretch regularly. When elbow and shoulder are aligned with casting direction, taking the elbow behind the shoulder would mean rotating my arm beyond vertical; not going to happen.

I would say that assuming elbow-shoulder-line alignment, comfortable shoulder joint rotation is limited to elbow slightly above horizontal, say max. 30 degrees.
John Waters wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:58 pm
I also suggest you extend your stance on the longer casts so that the extended elbow movement can be done from a more balanced platform. It will also allow for more effective weight transfer from the front foot to the back foot on the back cast, and back to the front foot on the forward cast. Snapping your wrist faster will also increase line speed on both the back and forward casts tightening your loop shape on your 50 + foot casts.
These went on my TODO list.

Body movement is interesting, one of those things I think I do consistently, but then video proves me otherwise. It seems that when I start focusing on some other aspect, weight transfer almost vanishes. Consistent use of weight transfer has to be a focus point.
John Waters wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:58 pm
Tracy James uses an excellent elbow path for her distance casting. I am suggesting you adopt a similar movement, albeit abridged, for your longer accuracy type casts.
I tried to find a video of Tracy James casting, but a moderate search effort produced nothing. Do you happen to have a link for me?

While searching for a video, I ended up looking at some accuracy casting competition vids. Sample was not large, but in what I saw there was little vertical elbow movement. I also took a look at Paul's masterclass video on drifting, with closed stance:



In general, there seems to be very little vertical elbow movement in the backcast. The drift employes vertical elbow movement, which can then be utilized for an "elbow drop" in the forward cast.

Actually, this video combines Paul and accuracy casting:



One of the advantages of very little vertical elbow movement in the backcast is achieving high backcast trajectory: with elbow down and close to the body, there is a natural backcast block.

I will explore both: increasing and decreasing vertical elbow movement. I will also take a look at increasing horizontal elbow movement in closed stance.
John Waters wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:58 pm
There is a limit we all reach for loop control on the standard overhead accuracy cast, after which we need to open the stance, use the torso and extend the hand path by moving the elbow to the side and then behind the shoulder, indeed, move the elbow more in a horizontal line. My suggestion is that you practice to extend that line length, after which you lose loop control, using the standard overhead cast. When you have exceeded that line length tipping point, train with a PUALD cast to a target a foot past that tipping point length. Repeat the PUALD cast a number of times then add a single false cast, then go back to the PUALD cast. When that single false cast is under control, repeat the PUALD cast and add two false casts etc etc. You may be surprised at how much control you gain, at extended distances, without reverting to the elbow out, horizontal elbow movement.

If you want to improve your accuracy consistency, with your desired loop shapes, at distances 50 foot and greater, keep your elbow in the plane of the shoulder, not out to the side. As Paul said just move the targeted objective in small increments and control follows.
Excellent plan. I will report back, with video evidence.

Second, regarding the tailing-tendency spinoff. This is related to tracking, since decrease in stroke lenght helps in maintaining tracking.
James9118 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:21 am
jarmo wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:13 am

Still, I may well do it, I might even do it on purpose. There are a couple of reasons. First, I like the initial tension it adds. Second, if I want to have any body speed during a relatively short stroke, I do not like to start from standstill.

Are you suggesting this would cause the tailing tendency?
Where I see your body move forward in that cast is still when you have plenty of fly-leg left in the back cast, i.e. as the loop is still propagating backwards. You really shouldn't have to be 'tensioning' at this point the change of momentum in the fly-leg (as it runs into the rod leg) should do this for you.

As such, when I think you should first start moving your weight you've almost completed that movement and look to be stood flat footed and still. You then make the forward cast purely with your arms.

This in itself does not cause the tail. The tail comes from a 'whump' of power in the middle of your casting stroke, generated by your arms. I think if you waited to make the body movement, in fact pushing backwards when your weight is coming forward, it would be easier to develop a smooth, flowing forward cast without the thump of power.
This makes complete sense. I will try to time body movement differently, and will report back.

The funny thing about that tailing tendency is that the feel of those casting strokes was exquisitely smooth. Yet, tailing tendency. Similarly, those >50' closed-stance casts are really effortless to make using shoulder rotation. Yet, big loops. These highlight my current, high-level problem: mismatch between feel and loop shape/size. Without video equipment, this would be hopeless.

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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

#316

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:26 am

Jarmo, finding clips of Tracy Thomas casting is difficult, maybe we can get James to post a clip of her 🙂

Otherwise, Stefan Siikavaraa casts in a similar way, and he is a bit easier to get clips of:





Tracy is even more arm in front of the body.

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Re: Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

#317

Post by John Waters » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:27 am

Hi Jarmo,

Your shoulder restriction will unfortunately inhibit external rotation of the shoulder and if there will be no change to that, then an alternative movement will need to be adopted to replicate your loop shape at 45 feet, when you extend to 50 feet and further. I fully understand that issue because I am working hard to extend my shoulder external rotation at the moment. I am lucky though and do not have any physical restrictions on that increase, other than age. Wish I had actioned that initiative at 20 years of age rather than 70 years of age but I can only look to improve my next cast so, c'est la vie. If think your 45 feet cast is good, so set your target at tightening your loop profile with two changes for your 50 feet cast, namely minimise sag and increase speed. I am ignoring the haul because I presume you want it to be haul free.

If you cannot extend translation by lifting the elbow to a point above the shoulder then you can open your stance and extend your hand path with torso twist and a horizontal elbow/hand path as you have in the 3rd video (elbow to the side) but I suggest an intermediary step may be feasible i.e. an elbow in front of the shoulder plane with a much wider stance and exaggerated body weight transfer. They key to that is linear movement of the hips whilst keeping your knees bent. If the knees straighten that only leaves a "leaning" movement of the upper torso and that is not what you want. With that is essential that you hold your hand static at the end of the backcast, whilst you initiate the weight transfer. James recommended that and I concur. Don't start the forward cast with the hand, start it with your weight transfer off the back foot and the forward hip movement, before the hand moves. It is subtle but it will tighten the forward cast. For the back cast start weight transfer and hip movement, not hand movement. That will tighten each cast. Tempo and wrist snap changes will add speed and a change in movement sequence through a wider stance will improve acceleration both ways. The wider stance I am referring to is quite wide, experiment with the width of your stance but extend beyond what is comfortable. The aim is to make a wider stance your comfort zone. We have an fly accuracy event in Oz with 5 targets between 35 and 55 feet, I am 5 foot 10 inches tall and my stance is 30 inches wide (heel to heel) for the longest targets.

My view of casting is a simple one, we each have two variables we can control, movement length and movement sequence. If the former is limited, you can still positively impact the latter.

I have no doubt bored everyone with these verbose posts, an AFL game starts in 10 minutes so more watching and less typing is the best advice I can offer myself. I should follow that advice.

John

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Paul Arden
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Re: Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

#318

Post by Paul Arden » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:02 pm

Hi sorry I’m sort of busy these next days (fishing! :) ). One suggestion I would make is perhaps totally off field Jarmo, but I’m sure everyone will agree.

Start off by casting 10’ of fly line or less. Focus on a tight loop “through a tunnel” with vertical forearm alignment ringing a bell on the backcast focussing on a pinpoint target in front. It feels like “casting off the tip”. It’s all about form but it’s also all about the loop.

Increase from there. It may sound strange but I think you really need to work on the very short range cast and extend.

Sorry I can’t watch the videos in full screen yet. But I will next week. These days I’m chasing Ladyfish. But that tunnel is so important. Make it 5’ of line instead of 10.

I have some great exercises for this (and I need to post another one I remember now on fly first!). I will get this stuff organised as soon as I can.

Cheers, Paul
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

#319

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:16 pm

Yup, agree on that! Throw in some casts with only leader and minimal stroke.

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Re: Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

#320

Post by jarmo » Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:49 am

Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:26 am
Otherwise, Stefan Siikavara casts in a similar way, and he is a bit easier to get clips of:
Thanks, this gives me a better idea of what we are talking about.

I have two more questions.
  • The original description of the stroke given above was "elbow behind shoulder." Looking at these I get a less extreme impression of "hand behind shoulder." Is my latter description correct?
  • On the backcast, the final angle of the rod is close to horizontal. At least in the "shootout winning cast" video, rotation looks asymmetric: final angle much closer to horizontal on backcast. I have tried this, I know what will happen if I do it: I get a class A windscreen wiper, with backcast trajectory downwards. If the hand is behind shoulder, the combination of the angle of the arm and any wrist use will send the line downwards. What is the trick here?
John Waters wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:27 am
My view of casting is a simple one, we each have two variables we can control, movement length and movement sequence. If the former is limited, you can still positively impact the latter.
Well said.
Paul Arden wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:02 pm
Start off by casting 10’ of fly line or less. Focus on a tight loop “through a tunnel” with vertical forearm alignment ringing a bell on the backcast focussing on a pinpoint target in front. It feels like “casting off the tip”. It’s all about form but it’s also all about the loop.

Increase from there. It may sound strange but I think you really need to work on the very short range cast and extend.
I think this could work for me if I move my arm slightly to the side so I have a better view of loops. Video feedback would come too late.

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