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Body rotation to max out line speed

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Paul Arden
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Re: Body rotation to max out line speed

#31

Post by Paul Arden » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:37 am

Nice photo Phil. I’ll invest some time in this. Thanks, Paul
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John Waters
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Re: Body rotation to max out line speed

#32

Post by John Waters » Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:36 am

John Waters wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:27 am
Great thread Phil. I have a different view for casting. You can rotate the torso whilst moving the hand, hence rod, in a vertical plane and thus achieve the loop profile Paul has mentioned. That is a key difference between casting and other throwing sports.

Baseball pitchers achieve extreme external rotation and super hand speed through body movement but they also lean forward and pitch downward off the mound. That is absolutely the correct movement chain and release trajectory for baseball, but not for casting. If you use pitching as the model for casting, and angle the rod off the vertical, then I agree with your need to drop your left shoulder and slant your shoulders in the frontal plane, exactly as you have portrayed. However, for casting, it is better to rotate around the vertical axis and achieve external rotation with the forearm in the vertical plane, whilst moving the elbow above the shoulder line. If you use javelin as the model, I would make the same comments. My earlier posts about kinetic chain, accelerating and braking, body segment movement and cumulative speed that underpin other throwing sports, also apply to casting. However, it is important to also accomodate the uniqueness of casting as a throwing sport i.e. maximising rod hand speed but still maintaining a vertical loop profile.

John
Hi Phil,

I think we are absolutely on the same page in recognising the role of the leg, torso and throwing/casting arm movement in other sports. All throwing and therefore in my opinion, casting, is about rotational stretch and release. It is folly to teach any other methodology or cast with any other technique. The only variation becomes those issues unique to casting i.e firstly, the hand needs to move in a single plane, secondly, be as close to a inclining straight line as possible and thirdly, use of the haul.

Casting is unique as it requires the haul hand to be connected to the throwing instrument (rod and line) until release and that means rotation of the body around a vertical axis, shoulders being as level as possible.

If not, the haul will start too early and be mainly expired when it should be just starting. In javelin, the sloping shoulder line results from the left elbow and hand to be pulled down and into the left side of the body in order to achieve the rapid and explosive braking or blocking of the non throwing side. It also opens up the throwing side for optimal movement in both the rotational plane and the linear plane and prevent over rotation. Casters cannot do that to the same extent because we need to haul the line late. I'll further go out on a limb here and suggest we haul too long but that is for another discussion. The other aspect of the javelin is the need to release the javelin over the front foot in order to optimise release speed and release angle. The very best move the javelin from behind their body to the right side of the court and that makes the sloping shoulder angle more important. Casters cannot use that hand path unless we want to hit ourselves with the line on the way through.

A vertical hand plane delivered by an explosive kinetic chain of movement delivers highest speed and optimal loop profile for casting. Javelin technique changed in the 90s when rotational delivery surpassed vertical delivery in results, but casting needs it to be vertical.

Stay safe,

John

Great photo

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Re: Body rotation to max out line speed

#33

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:32 pm

There is a video of Rajeff giving a demo on casting that caught my eye. I think it was at the club out in California but I don't remember for sure. But, at one point, the video was from behind and Steve was launching an attention-getting distance cast.

Even though he was discussing something else, maybe tracking, when he made the cast I could not help but notice his hip and shoulder rotation. He had not mentioned this part of casting in the video yet, and he would not later, but it looked to me exactly like how a good football quarterback uses their core in a pass.

There are tons of videos and discussion on quarterback passing technique on the web. Some breaks down how "great" pros pass and others are on how to teach young athletes. Y'all might want to take a look at some of them?

I'm not saying that passing a football is exactly how to cast a flyrod, but I see more similarities here than in pitching a baseball or throwing a javelin?

Again, my usual disclaimer... I'm thinking about fly casting at the normal level, not ultimate competition distance technique.
"Technique is the proof of your seriousness"

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Re: Body rotation to max out line speed

#34

Post by Phil Blackmar » Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:43 pm

Hey John

I agree about the timing of the haul, it limits the optimal delay between segments in the chain. Since we are outside the box, I thought you would enjoy this one.
submariner.jpg
submariner.jpg (35.79 KiB) Viewed 132 times
:p :p :p

Phil

John Waters
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Re: Body rotation to max out line speed

#35

Post by John Waters » Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:50 pm

Love that photo Phil, being outside the box gives you the best perspective. It is the best place to be.

Thanks,

John

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Paul Arden
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Re: Body rotation to max out line speed

#36

Post by Paul Arden » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:16 am

Hi Gary,

We analysed Steve’s casting closely from Mel Krieger’s Essence 2 video as well as some footage I took of him in Idaho Falls. When I first got into distance casting I tried to emulate his style. Sink the back leg, straighten and come through with the hips first. About a year later I was blown away when I met Rick Hartman when we fished Telluride together and had to learn his technique, which is certainly a different technique and has little body twist - there is some, but the foundations from the ground up feel completely different and it’s more straight than twist. I see the 1.5 steps a step up, quite literally, from that.

I think ultimately we all need to try everything in this game and there won’t be many techniques that competitors haven’t tried, which is why I’ll learn to throw as Phil suggests! In fact I believe there is a progress in learning that goes something like Closed, Open, 170 and it’s best to put each one in place before moving to the next. However when I cast heavy gear I try to cast much more like Steve and find it to be a more powerful and stable position.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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