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Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

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Paul Arden
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Re: Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

#351

Post by Paul Arden »

Just curious, why without hauling? I haul just about everything when fishing. Target casting is a little different. I know the CI and MCI tests restrict hauling to isolate the stroke (or for some unknown other reason) but I have two arms and use them both!

Cheers, Paul
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jarmo
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Re: Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

#352

Post by jarmo »

Paul Arden wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:52 am Just curious, why without hauling? I haul just about everything when fishing. Target casting is a little different. I know the CI and MCI tests restrict hauling to isolate the stroke (or for some unknown other reason) but I have two arms and use them both!
First, as you stated: MCI. I know they can penalise for a relatively small tracking error, and closed stance eliminates it.

Second, at close range, closed stance is my favourite. I thought it would be limited to close-up work, but after seeing your messages about opening up after 100' or something like that, I realised that was not the case. After 55' no haul, next target is to extend to, say, 75' haul carry, still in 1' increments, keeping it tight, and then shoot the rest.

I had another 30 minute session this morning, at sunrise, birds singing all around me. The best time of the year, hands down. Now 50' felt pretty easy. But the video will be the judge :) and I have not looked at it yet.
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Paul Arden
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Re: Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

#353

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Jarmo,

That’s 100’ shots of course not 100’ carry! I don’t know when I switch stances on carry length. I will measure it. It’s going to be different for everyone. There is a point when it just becomes easier to shift the front foot to the back.

For me virtually all sight fishing shots are closed stance. I think there is great strength in that.

I personally would recommend separating hauling from the rod arm as an isolation exercise. But I wouldn’t get hung up on it. Hauling is not an add-on to the stroke. It is an integral part and controls timing (not the other way around).

Most casters don’t spend very much time developing their haul. This is a mistake. There are exercises that isolate the haul too! These are every bit as important as isolating the rod arm. Personally I think this “let’s see you cast without hauling” does a disservice to teaching. Yes it’s important to do it, but why cast with one hand tied behind your back?

Cast on one leg, cast blindfold. These are all good training exercises. But my advice would be to really develop your haul for all casting situations.

Our Board analysis of the haul is actually missing something by the way. “It’s adds 20% more line speed” “it helps straighten tip path during rod unload”. It accomplishes very much more than this. Maybe in 3-5 years time we will have figured it out. For me the haul controls the stroke.

So Jarmo, I would say that after you’ve taken the closed stance rod arm to where you want to take it, next really take the haul to pieces and develop that. My lightbulb moment happened for me while driving across the US, which saw me pull into a parking lot on the side of the freeway to work on my hauling!

And if you’ve already done that then maybe it will be useful info for someone else!

Cheers, Paul
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

#354

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

Paul Arden wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:43 pm

I personally would recommend separating hauling from the rod arm as an isolation exercise. But I wouldn’t get hung up on it. Hauling is not an add-on to the stroke. It is an integral part and controls timing (not the other way around).

Most casters don’t spend very much time developing their haul. This is a mistake. There are exercises that isolate the haul too! These are every bit as important as isolating the rod arm. Personally I think this “let’s see you cast without hauling” does a disservice to teaching. Yes it’s important to do it, but why cast with one hand tied behind your back?


Cheers, Paul
Because its also an isolation excercise, a ok haul can hide a crappy stroke, and often does. Take away the haul and work on getting a good stroke, add the haul again and everything sings.


Cheers
Lasse
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Flycasting, so simple that instructors need to make it complicated since 1685

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jarmo
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Re: Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

#355

Post by jarmo »

Greetings Paul!
Paul Arden wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:43 pm That’s 100’ shots of course not 100’ carry!
Yes, we are on the same page. But let us say you carry 55' without a haul. How much additional carry would you expect the haul to provide?

Regarding the video of the latest session:
  • Your pickup method did not tail. Brilliant!
  • I made it beyond 55'. I lost some loop tightness and smoothness, but that was at least partially because I focused on other stuff and weight transfer suffered again and - to be honest - I was no longer focusing on "the tunnel." Too little translation, too much arc and power.
  • Lifting the elbow during the final rotation in the backcast can make that line sing.
The only real problem I have now is backcast trajectory with longer carries, both in pickup and in false casting. This is to be expected. On the forward cast, I can open my hand (like you do in one of your distance casting videos), delay rotation, and make the final rotation on a rising edge (hope that makes sense).

On the backcast I used to be able to do this - with the three-point grip, palm forward, and a rod with no fighting butt. But those wrist muscles are weak, and I was asking for trouble, which promptly arrived at the end of a very long training session, and send my casting backwards for... years? So no more. But perhaps - as an instructor - it is for the better. I would be inviting trouble to students as well.

But, somehow, I need to be able to delay that backcast rotation better.
  • Weight transfer. (What's my attention span?)
  • Significant translational drift after forward cast.
  • Open hand as much as possible in the regular three-point grip.
I will return to other stuff later. Gotta run now. Thanks - again!
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Paul Arden
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Re: Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

#356

Post by Paul Arden »

Good question Jarmo. I couldn’t remember my Max non hauled carry. So I asked Bernd. Fly line end measured to hauling hand Bernd has one of the longest non-hauled carries I’ve seen. 78ft non hauled with MED5. 88-91ft with hauling.

I don’t think I’ve cast with anyone who comes so close. Bernd’s non hauled carry is longer than mine (we had a comp in the garden years ago). On the other hand my Max hauled carry is slightly more. Approx 95’ at sea level.

That in itself is quite interesting. Having said that non hauled carry is not something I train. But Max hauled carry is something I’ve trained for 20 years.

I don’t know what the difference would be with a 55’ carry. It would depend on the quality of the haul.

For me there is a huge stroke difference between the two casts. Non hauled is pullback, hauled is Stopless. So much so I personally don’t think training one helps the other and I consider them separate techniques. That’s my personal opinion; I haven’t experimented teaching it on others!

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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jarmo
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Re: Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

#357

Post by jarmo »

Another adventure with trial and error. Still the same task: closed stance, no haul. Started hitting my rod consistently with the line on the backcast at distances beyond 45'. Video shows that lifting the elbow on the backcast places the rod tip nicely in the path of the line. On the other hand, dropping the elbow on the forward cast makes the line sail nicely just above the rod tip.

So while lifting the elbow on the backcast seems to tighten loops, there is a limit beyond which it becomes considerably counterproductive.

Adventure continues.
Phil Blackmar
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Re: Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

#358

Post by Phil Blackmar »

Another possessed soul, I love it Jarmo.....

Paul-

A while back you touched on Poly leaders. I am working on a combination for Cobia fishing around oil/gas rigs and need some help. I cannot find a sinking leader to add to a floating line which has a higher test strength. I have moved from a 10 wt to 12 wt rod with a floating line. Last trip I doubled up a sinking leader which listed 25lb strength. It actually cast and sank nicely but I'm obviously not a fan of two lines..I need the higher test strength to help keep them out of the rigs. With a floating line, sinking leader and mono leader too, it was quite the contraption.

Thank you
Phil
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Re: Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

#359

Post by easterncaster »

Hi Phil,

Just a thought - untested by moi:

Have you tried Skagit tips? They are available in many iterations of grain wgt., sink rate and length (Sci-Ang has a great set of light 80 grn tips and then barstool has some super nice big-boy tips). Most Skagit tips come with manuf. frnt/rear loops, so giving them a quick test is easy-peasy. Of course you can cut and paste them as you choose - or buying a spool of say T-19 (Sci-Ang) to do so.

Craig
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Paul Arden
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Re: Tracking ... tracking ... tracking

#360

Post by Paul Arden »

How fast does it have to sink, Phil? I make my own from braid but I use them for depth, in my case it’s to turn braid over on a long leader. I’m quite sure you could use some lead core or an old sinking line to make something up. How much strength do you need is also a question?

Cheers, Paul
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