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Is the cast itself a transverse wave?

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Graeme H
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Is the cast itself a transverse wave?

#181

Post by Graeme H »

Merlin wrote:Where is the wave which is supposed to have also make a full cycle and move downwards?
Here's a video explaining where the wave went.

Maybe a revision of a wave actually is might help. I don't know, but maybe ...
A wave can be described as a disturbance that travels through a medium from one location to another location. Consider a slinky wave as an example of a wave. When the slinky is stretched from end to end and is held at rest, it assumes a natural position known as the equilibrium or rest position. The coils of the slinky naturally assume this position, spaced equally far apart. To introduce a wave into the slinky, the first particle is displaced or moved from its equilibrium or rest position. The particle might be moved upwards or downwards, forwards or backwards; but once moved, it is returned to its original equilibrium or rest position. The act of moving the first coil of the slinky in a given direction and then returning it to its equilibrium position creates a disturbance in the slinky. We can then observe this disturbance moving through the slinky from one end to the other. If the first coil of the slinky is given a single back-and-forth vibration, then we call the observed motion of the disturbance through the slinky a slinky pulse. A pulse is a single disturbance moving through a medium from one location to another location. However, if the first coil of the slinky is continuously and periodically vibrated in a back-and-forth manner, we would observe a repeating disturbance moving within the slinky that endures over some prolonged period of time. The repeating and periodic disturbance that moves through a medium from one location to another is referred to as a wave.
That was from this site.

Now just replace "Slinky" with "Fly Line".



Cheers,
Graeme
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Paul Arden
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Is the cast itself a transverse wave?

#182

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Graeme,

If your are applying a transverse wave equation to a fly loop and using the wiggle cast as a reference, then the wave length is the combined height of the loops on forward and backcast.

As Merlin points out they have straightened in the overhead cast which makes them difficult to measure.

One interesting phenomena is that if they haven't straightened and you begin your cast too early your cast can cataclysmically fail. So if the cast is a transverse wave, it appears to only enjoy being half of one. Weird.

Cheers, Paul
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Graeme H
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Is the cast itself a transverse wave?

#183

Post by Graeme H »

If your are applying a transverse wave equation to a fly loop and using the wiggle cast as a reference, then the wave length is the combined height of the loops on forward and backcast.
Not quite. In the wiggle cast analogy, the tension vector that allows those wiggles to propagate is away from us towards the fly leg. It stretches the wave in that direction. In a cast, the tension vector is usually down, collapsing the apparent wavelength we can observe. Rather than moving away from us as it did in the wiggle cast, the wave moves towards us (downwards) as shown in that first wavey rod video. That was a "vertical wiggle cast" with tension supplied by gravity instead of a fly leg. We always need to cast with some vertical line tension (or even upward projection) to counteract the constant gravitational shortening of the wavelength we see.

The height of the loops is not a valid measure because a horizontal loop has no effective height itself. However, the fly leg still must be aimed as appropriate for any projectile. Down or level for short casts, higher for longer casts.

I'd say the wave length may be calculated from the period of the return of any given point in the system to the same point in the previous cycle, e.g. the fly reaches the end of the front cast again or the tip crosses the vertical on the back cast again. The height the fly falls* in that total time (minus the stroke times) can be calculated from a formula. We can observe the time it's airborne, so we can calculate how far it has "fallen". If a total cast cycle is 2.2 seconds, and the strokes totalled 0.7 seconds, the fly "fell" for 0.75 seconds during each phase of the cycle. Using those numbers, the fly in my image from a few pages back "fell" 5.5 metres, so that was the wavelength for that cast cycle. This is not something we can photograph and measure: we need to measure times and back-calculate distances according to common physics equations.

Please note, I made some errors in my calculations a few pages back, combining the total time instead of splitting it into two separate phases of roughly equal flight duration and allowing for stroke time. Mia culpa.

We know that the fly leg acts in accordance with standard projectile motion physics (or at least, I know this) because it receives no vertical supporting force after RSP. From that point until the fly lands or begins its next phase of the cast, each little piece of the fly leg will be under the influence of gravity and air drag until it hits the rod leg. When the tension falls away from that too, the whole line falls as one.

The further we want to cast, the higher our aim must be on each phase or the fly will land before we can begin the next one. That's the same as if we were throwing a ball: aim higher (within reason) to throw further. But for us, we pull the ball back on our string before it lands and fling it the other direction. If it's not below our rod tip when we fling it the other direction, it's not going very far because we can't aim it upwards. Standing proud on a cliff would be great because we can let the fly drop below the level of our feet and aim higher on the next cast.

The higher aim means longer wavelength (it rises and falls more) and longer period between the start of each cycle (length of pause).

I believe it enjoys being all of a full one even more than all of a half one. In an overhead cast, the front cast is usually preceded by a back cast. ALD doesn't work too well without a PU ... ;)

Cheers,
Graeme

* I put "fall" in quotation marks because it is still being pulled down by gravity even if it's going up at or after RSP. If gravity was not pulling it down, it would reach 5.5 metres total height in the 1.5 seconds it was aloft.
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Merlin
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Is the cast itself a transverse wave?

#184

Post by Merlin »

Now you are not kidding Graeme but you are provocative. There is no vertical line suspended in the air which supports your transverse wave created by the tip. It would be turned upside down or it would dive into the ground.
The « crest », which is the loop for you (post 54), should move vertically and never horizontally. The amplitude of the wave is determined by the tip travel, not by the length of the cast. There is no ballistic launch of the line, I pointed that from your own video, and I have the regret to see that there is nothing which makes you doubt about your theory, so I conclude it is useless to try to bring you back on earth and I shall stop to comment.

Merlin
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Paul Arden
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Is the cast itself a transverse wave?

#185

Post by Paul Arden »

So what is v?
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VGB
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Is the cast itself a transverse wave?

#186

Post by VGB »

Same site about waves, just further down the page:
In a wave phenomenon, energy can move from one location to another, yet the particles of matter in the medium return to their fixed position. A wave transports its energy without transporting matter.
“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage — to move in the opposite direction.” — Ernst F. Schumacher

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anjill
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Is the cast itself a transverse wave?

#187

Post by anjill »

Hi Gordy,
Tony,
was the top of the plank at the same height as that bar rather than being at the same height as the groove in the wheel of your pulley? The fly leg of your dolphin nosed loop seems to be much higher than the height of that bar. In my case, using a smooth coffee cup to form the initial loop shape the fly leg of the resulting loop tended to at the same height as the top of the cup. Did you thread the line underneath that bar so that it was in contact with the groove at the top of the wheel in the pulley?

If you made a faster haul did you still get a dolphin nosed loop even though the loop had a faster propagation speed? I generally see those ripples show up in a casting loop near the end of the cast (and lower loop speed) where the line tension in the loop is smaller.

I assume the wheel in your pulley continued to spin after you completed your down ward haul and thus had a tendency to flare out the rod leg line as shown below.

Image

However, what caused the formation of that backward loop is still a mystery since I assume the wheel in your pulley was rotating clockwise and thus would only form a backward loop if the line in the rod leg was in contact with the bottom of the wheel, not the top as it appears to be in your video.

Do you have any ideas as to what might have caused it? When you see something you did not expect, there is always something to learn about loop formation.
Well spotted. I suspect you are correct about the slack which develops between my hauling hand and the pulley.

That crude experiment was cobbled together 7 years ago in an attempt to refute suggestions that that loop shape was a product of rod tip path during the casting stroke. I was happy enough with the results and did not consider any other potential revelations, nor did I carefully control any of the inputs such as alignment or haul speed but I suspect that the line was aimed at the top of the rotating pulley since I do not see a loop propagating rearwards but rather a sort of nascent loop climbing slightly upward over the bar and then propagating roughly horizontally.

I agree that the "dolphin nose" becomes more noticeable at the distal end of an unrolling loop with low tension. The other potentiating factor seems to be loop width. The shape becomes more defined in inverse proportion to loop width.

Regards,
Tony.
anjill
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Is the cast itself a transverse wave?

#188

Post by anjill »

Hi Graeme,
I had a play this morning during practice, paying more careful attention to the loop shape on really slow casts with tight horizontal loops, and yes, they do form on the sideways plane casts. Thanks for encouraging me look a bit harder Tony.
Masterly response to my provocation. Good on you.

Regards,
Tony.
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gordonjudd
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Is the cast itself a transverse wave?

#189

Post by gordonjudd »

In a wave phenomenon, energy can move from one location to another, yet the particles of matter in the medium return to their fixed position. A wave transports its energy without transporting matter.
Vince,
As noted back in post 15:
An attempt to define the necessary and sufficient characteristics that qualify a phenomenon as a wave results in a blurred line.
In the case of kinetic waves, i.e.,
In gravity and pressure driven fluid dynamical and geophysical mass flows such as ocean waves, avalanches, debris flows, mud flows, flash floods, etc
Considerable matter may be transported in the wave flow.

Gordy
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gordonjudd
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Is the cast itself a transverse wave?

#190

Post by gordonjudd »

However, what caused the formation of that backward loop is still a mystery
Tony,
Now that I understand there was a bar that restricted the line movement of the rod leg in your haul experiment, and paying more attention to the fact it is not really propagating, I think that loop is just the result of the stiffness of the line. That loop is just due to the fact the line does not want to bend around that bar with a shape that fits with the small diameter of the bar.

No mystery, you just used a different way to form the loop compared to my hauls around a smooth coffee cup with no moving parts.

I really liked your demonstration of using the second bending mode of the rod to produce tighter transverse waves with less effort.

What camera or phone are you using to take your high speed videos?
Gordy
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