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Why does the 170/stopless work

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John Waters
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Why does the 170/stopless work

#51

Post by John Waters »

Graeme H wrote:Hi John,

While you have the lie detector out, can you also measure a back-cast delivery with both types of "stop" please? Which throws further for you is the answer I'm after.

(Personally, I cast about as far on the back cast as I do on the front cast. My form is better on the back cast and I need to work on keeping things neater on the front cast.)

Cheers,
Graeme
Hi Graeme, apologies for the delay in responding, but my fellow casting tragic Phil Smith has been away in Tassie so we took the lie detector down to the casting pool today. In the hour we cast the trout distance 5 weight, the wind ranged from 13 km/hour to 14.8 km/hour and it was straight up our clacker. The best two casts in 4 x 3 minute segments were 40.8 and 41.2 metres and I measured a backcast release of 26.2 metres with my normal technique and 24.8 metres with my interpretation of the stopless cast. Now, I have to qualify the above with the caveat that my stopless cast technique ain’t flash so need to work on that. The best two deliveries with the stopless technique was 38.8 and 39.2 metres. Ditto the qualification. The conditions were perfect for my casting technique, enough wind carry the forward loop and straighten the line and leader, but not too strong to prevent the full extension on my backcast.

I found the backcast release distances very interesting, I would have expected them to go a tad further but the percentage of turnover on both was not high with the leader and the end of the line crunched up. It could have been the breeze, but also the speed I was generating in the loop.

John
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Paul Arden
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Why does the 170/stopless work

#52

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi John,

I'm not sure I understand this:
I measured a backcast release of 26.2 metres with my normal technique and 24.8 metres with my interpretation of the stopless cast
Is this your carry? I carry between 88'6 and 92' with the 170 (and a MED of course). 90ft is 27.4m. I can set a similar length with pull-back on the HT10. No way however with the HT6, to carry that length I must 170.
In terms of delivery off the backcast I lose a little distance, but I'm still in the game. Jacko often beat me in Australia with a backhand delivery. I think with practise there is no reason why it shouldn't be as far, and sometimes further - it is after all probably the best haul you can ever get. It's just very hard to delay rotation because the rod butt is tucked into your forearm.

Cheers, Paul
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John Waters
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Why does the 170/stopless work

#53

Post by John Waters »

Hi Paul,

No mate not my carry, Graeme requested I measure a shoot on my backcast. I have not measured a carry, I believe mine varies with conditions but I would not carry 90 feet. I was surprised that a backcast shoot did not go further and I said to Phil that I will repeat the exercise. I need to better understand why a forward cast release can go 14 metres further than a backcast release. I have let backcast go before when I have lost control of the cast and in preparation for starting again. What I have always noticed is the lack of shoot on those occasions. Never thought about it much and if not for Graeme’s question would not have thought about it at all because I have only been interested in having the backcast straighten with a minimum of distortion. In my case the loop primarily just drops and does not travel much at all. The other factor to consider is the angle of my rod on a backcast shoot and therefore the drag on the loop, much different from a forward cast in my case. Today, I estimate that if the turnover percentage of the backcast release was 100%, the distance achieved would have been 29 plus metres. I would have expected my carry today to be about 80 feet but I need to measure that also when I measure a backcast release. I do not strive for the same loop speed on my backcast as I do on my forward cast, rather much less I suspect as my body movement is very different and my rod travel length is also different. Both of which I use to generate line speed and both outweigh for me the haul differential on each cast.

Interesting exercise for me, will redo this week and see what I get.

John
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Graeme H
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Why does the 170/stopless work

#54

Post by Graeme H »

Thanks very much for the measurements John. I was not expecting such a large asymmetry in the distances and I'm not sure what to make of it.

Cheers,
Graeme
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John Waters
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Why does the 170/stopless work

#55

Post by John Waters »

Let me have more of a play Graeme, see what I can determine.

John
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Paul Arden
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Why does the 170/stopless work

#56

Post by Paul Arden »

That’s very strange. Are you using a rod with Snakes and aligned to the cast? I twist my rings out to 45 degrees. If the line is running along the blank it won’t shoot far. If you are running along the rings then I’m surprised. My backhand distance shots are quite comparable to forehand.

Cheers, Paul
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John Waters
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Why does the 170/stopless work

#57

Post by John Waters »

Hi Paul,

I use snake rings and all are aligned to the cast, I suspect the lack of distance is mainly due to the angle of rod at release on the backcast but I will repeat with the snake guides twisted to 45 degrees and record more distances.

John
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Paul Arden
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Why does the 170/stopless work

#58

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi John,

I used to teach the 170 with soft rods by throwing the rod tip into the ground on the backcast. On a traditional 170 (ha!) the rod is “stopped” at a lower position on the backcast than the forward.

It will be interesting to hear what changes it makes when you rotate the rings. I’m 45 degrees out. I know lots of casters who rotate 90 degrees inwards. I broke three rods one weekend aligned this way and stopped doing it!

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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John Waters
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Why does the 170/stopless work

#59

Post by John Waters »

Thanks Paul, I’ll measure some casts with different guide positions and the two techniques.

John
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Graeme H
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Why does the 170/stopless work

#60

Post by Graeme H »

Paul Arden wrote:It will be interesting to hear what changes it makes when you rotate the rings. I’m 45 degrees out. I know lots of casters who rotate 90 degrees inwards. I broke three rods one weekend aligned this way and stopped doing it!
Hey Paul,

Have you tried comparing casts with rotated and non-rotated guides now that your HT10 rods have guides with torzite inserts? I'd be interested in your results.

My main reason for making all my rods with SiC insert guides was the haul-lock I used to get with wire guides. That stopped as soon as I started using them. I'm interested to find out if the cause of your reduced BC shoot could be attributed to blank friction - as you've stated - or the line being sucked into the V of wire guide-blank contact points, or some combination of both.

Cheers,
Graeme
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