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Static Roll Cast - Hauling

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Bernd Ziesche
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Static Roll Cast - Hauling

#11

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:58 am

John Waters wrote:I do it all the time in the roll cast section of Fly accuracy events on water.

John
Hi John,
Can you describe how you do it in detail and what it does for you?
Thanks
Bernd
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The first cast is always the best cast.

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Graeme H
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Static Roll Cast - Hauling

#12

Post by Graeme H » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:30 am

Bernd Ziesche wrote:Hi Graeme,
In order to get max distance, releasing the line early is a huge catalyst! Like Paul I had to learn the 18m EFFA static roll with no line behind the tip at the start of the delivery stroke. I got stucked on 18,5m. Then by accident I hit 20+. Early release was the accident. Never had to train to easily hit those 18m again.
It's not easy to efficiently use the hole stroke length right from the start to hit max speed at the end WHEN starting of a "dead arm position". Many struggle and start too slow! Using a bit lower forward stop lengthens the arc on the most effective side though. Combined with early release the lower stop still works.
Cheers
Bernd
Thanks Bernd, I'll give that a try next time I'm practicing.

John, I guess I'm trying to replicate the haul I do in my OH cast, which is as late as possible and with the rotation.

I haven't experimented with release timing, so next chance I get, I'll play.

Cheers,
Graeme
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Michal Duzynski
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Static Roll Cast - Hauling

#13

Post by Michal Duzynski » Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:26 pm

Ciao
Few months back I had a discussion with Italians regarding their casting invention aka Froller Cast.
I tried to prove them that this is a static roll cast with big Dloop placed on the ground( anyway that is different subject)
I the video I single haul on the cast. Im not sure if this is helpfull to this thread, but it is single haul on the static roll cast.

You would have to dig in some italian casting under lancio froller.

https://youtu.be/Mj-B19M-dpQ

Cheers
Mike

Torsten
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Static Roll Cast - Hauling

#14

Post by Torsten » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:31 pm

Hi,

I don't buy the hauling theory, because Thomas is casting the static roll over 20m *with* a haul.
https://vimeo.com/110457985

Also, it's not just about momentum but kinetic energy of the line; thus when you're removing mass you maybe accelerate the line too. The major challenge seems to me the surface tension and the magnitude of the (non-conservative) force while trying to get the line out of the water is somewhat correlated to the speed - I've to investigate more about that.

@Mike I know that cast already from an older video of Lefty .. with that trick you're getting the majority of the line out of the surface tension - but I like most the tongariro roll cast for all my fishing (easy to place the anchor well in front of you, no issues with slipping anchor).

Thanks,
Torsten

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Bernd Ziesche
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Static Roll Cast - Hauling

#15

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Thu May 02, 2019 10:28 am

Torsten wrote: I don't buy the hauling theory, because Thomas is casting the static roll over 20m *with* a haul.
Hello Torsten,
Thanks for your fine thoughts! ;)
I am not yet sure, what exactly you are referring to by "the hauling theory", but I am pretty sure about some facts:

Hauling does shorten the rod-leg in the D-loop and due to that potential mass being accelerated by rod rotation. Thus I need more line speed making for air resistance increasing in square here. Though speeding up in order to create the same distance means, one has to fight more air resistance as well. For most students adding more force means less control. That is, because additional force application makes it less comfortable to control smoothness.

I have seen many fly casters who weren't able to add distance by hauling that cast.

Now Thomas (in that fine video) performs a very well timed and executed static roll cast. I have been casting with Thomas several times and he is really great (not only) in that cast.
But I have also seen a few casters hitting 1 to 2 additional meters without hauling (5/6 wt. longbelly lines).

Of course it also depends, if the caster is able to really master the head length. If hauling means to pull in the head it also causes more resistance in the tip rings when letting go.

I agree, that there is more to be investigated in! Exactly why I brought this up here.

I remember Aitor filming me from a bird's view (bridge). What we saw: No matter what I did, the final movement of the anchor-tip was in the wrong direction. Slomos proved this. I may be wrong, but I'd put my money on the anchor-tip increasing wrong directed momentum when increasing line speed. Another contra one has to overcome.
Regards
Bernd
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The first cast is always the best cast.

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Paul Arden
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Static Roll Cast - Hauling

#16

Post by Paul Arden » Thu May 02, 2019 10:54 am

I think it comes down to tackle, and in particular the line itself. With a maximum distance roll cast and a DT I cannot shoot more than I haul. There comes a point where all the energy in the cast is used to turn the line over and there is none left for shooting. With a shorter WF profile this changes and line can be shot. Assuming that you start casting the D-loop with overhang of the same length as the haul, then the increase in line speed created by the haul should allow you to shoot more line. What we are actually comparing here is the same final D-loop at release but one has higher line speed because there has been a haul. In other words we have hauled running line to get the D-loop to the same point as the non-hauled cast. Depending on the line length I think it's obvious that there be a point where this will result in more line being shot.

However that's just one side of the argument. ie maximum distance. When fishing we don't only cast for maximum distance, and we often roll cast under trees, into the wind, and these are at distances of less than 18 or 20m maximum. Hauling allows us to generate line speed with both rod tip plus haul, which in turn allows less force in the rod for the same distance and therefore less counterflex after it unloads and consequently results in a tighter loop - to be honest I can't actually think of many uses for a tight slow loop in a roll cast :p

BUT I can think of uses for high line speed on a short roll cast - casting into the wind, delivering the fly quickly, turning over a longer leader and so on. If I have to roll cast 10m into a strong wind, then I will start with 10m plus haul length and make a powerful stroke with a haul to turn the loop over. The argument then becomes can you use a haul to turn over a roll cast that otherwise collapses because of the wind? I believe so.

The highest speed, tightest loop, lowest to the water roll cast, I have seen has been Peter Hayes. It is like a 170 speed, close to the water, incredible roll cast. There is a haul.

Cheers, Paul
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Graeme H
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Static Roll Cast - Hauling

#17

Post by Graeme H » Thu May 02, 2019 11:24 am

Bernd and the other MCI level examiners,

Although I am impressed with the cast that Torsten linked to, would you count that as a "pass" in Task 13b of the MCI exam?

Of particular note to me are:
- The line still moving as the cast is initiated.
- The size of the loop.
- The line still unrolling as the rod legs first touches the water.

Don't get me wrong: I'd be happy to fish with that cast any day of the week. What I'd like to know is "would that cast would pass the MCI exam requirements?" I ask because I can't easily get feedback about my own casts as I work on the MCI tasks for my next attempt (in 18 months ...). I can make a cast like that, but do I need to be better every time?

Cheers,
Graeme
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Paul Arden
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Static Roll Cast - Hauling

#18

Post by Paul Arden » Thu May 02, 2019 12:37 pm

Hi Graeme,

this:
The D-loop will not extend more than one arm plus one rod length behind the caster.

makes the cast far easier. With EFFA extending the line behind the rod tip is strictly not allowed. It's because of this that 18m+ is such a problem with a long belly or DT line. As I understand it, the favourite line at the time was a Wulff TT, which obviously makes the task easier than using the XXD that I used. I always have problems with that sort of thing, and think that common WF or DT lines should be the standard - anyway I digress.

Would the cast pass MCI? I don't think that the line is moving, although it's borderline. The loop size is probably slightly too wide. I don't see on the IFF exam the third requirement, but if is one then it fails. Still I don't think it's a fair comparison. Given the restriction of not being able to extend line behind the rod tip when setting up the D-loop, as well the extra 10ft required upon delivery, I think it's a quite different challenge (many years ago when I took this exam I said it was the hardest cast and I still believe that to be true - it's the one I had to train for the most).

I haven't measured my cast since then - that was all about 15 years ago. It would be interesting to revisit and see what I'm throwing now. I'll take a tape measure to the lake next week and see what I'm doing nowadays. Wouldn't it be nice to have a floating tape measure? :D

Cheers, Paul
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Lasse Karlsson
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Static Roll Cast - Hauling

#19

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu May 02, 2019 1:01 pm

Paul Arden wrote:Wouldn't it be nice to have a floating tape measure? :D

Cheers, Paul
Why haven't you got one???

And does anyone have the effa requirement of the rollcast? Sounds like a bit of bs being thrown around ;)

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Lasse
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Lasse Karlsson
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Static Roll Cast - Hauling

#20

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu May 02, 2019 1:04 pm

Graeme, the cast is hauled, in the exam, hauling not allowed...

Edit missed the b part :D will have a serious look!

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Lasse
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