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The point of tapers in fly lines and leaders
Moderators: Paul Arden, stesiik
The point of tapers in fly lines and leaders
OK, so I thought I had this sorted, but recent posts in other threads have me confused.
I’d always thought there were two main ways of looking at things taper-wise:
Roll casts/Speys: where thick line pulls lighter line off the water surface, so Spey oriented lines have back-weighted heads and long front tapers.
Presentation: where thinner line is subject to more air resistance and so slows down quicker than thick line (of the same density). This helps stop the fly line kicking, and with tapered leaders smooths the transition from fly line to fly.
But then Bruce said he’d thickened the tip of the MED to slow down turnover, citing increased mass...
And then James said that the taper in a bull-whip speeds up the tip...
Soooo...
How should I be thinking about this now?
Cheers
Will
I’d always thought there were two main ways of looking at things taper-wise:
Roll casts/Speys: where thick line pulls lighter line off the water surface, so Spey oriented lines have back-weighted heads and long front tapers.
Presentation: where thinner line is subject to more air resistance and so slows down quicker than thick line (of the same density). This helps stop the fly line kicking, and with tapered leaders smooths the transition from fly line to fly.
But then Bruce said he’d thickened the tip of the MED to slow down turnover, citing increased mass...
And then James said that the taper in a bull-whip speeds up the tip...
Soooo...
How should I be thinking about this now?
Cheers
Will
Lineslinger
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Re: The point of tapers in fly lines and leaders
Hi Will,
The thinner line has less air resistance and actually wants to speed up. At first when the loop reaches the front taper it does sometimes accelerate. However it also has less mass.
I think Gordy would tell you that less mass means less momentum change at the loop front and therefore less force pulling the line. I think others might say that the mass to surface ratio of the thinner line means that drag forces have a greater effect on slowing the line. Maybe it’s a bit of both.
I would love to hear a clear explanation. In particular I would like to understand why a whip tapers to crack and a fly line tapers to dissipate energy.
Cheers, Paul
The thinner line has less air resistance and actually wants to speed up. At first when the loop reaches the front taper it does sometimes accelerate. However it also has less mass.
I think Gordy would tell you that less mass means less momentum change at the loop front and therefore less force pulling the line. I think others might say that the mass to surface ratio of the thinner line means that drag forces have a greater effect on slowing the line. Maybe it’s a bit of both.
I would love to hear a clear explanation. In particular I would like to understand why a whip tapers to crack and a fly line tapers to dissipate energy.
Cheers, Paul
Re: The point of tapers in fly lines and leaders
Yep, I was/am(?) in the mass:surface area ratio camp. But Bruce’s comments have thrown me!
Lineslinger
Barrio Pro-team
SGAIC
AAPGAI
"The only advice it is necessary to give the angler… is to avoid any approach to foppery, as trout have the most thorough contempt for a fop…”
WC Stewart
Barrio Pro-team
SGAIC
AAPGAI
"The only advice it is necessary to give the angler… is to avoid any approach to foppery, as trout have the most thorough contempt for a fop…”
WC Stewart
- Lasse Karlsson
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Re: The point of tapers in fly lines and leaders
Didn't Bruce sat he lengthened the front taper to delay turnover but increased the mass to ensure it would?
Can't find the reply right now...
Cheers
Lasse
Can't find the reply right now...
Cheers
Lasse
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Flycasting, so simple that instructors need to make it complicated since 1685
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Flycasting, so simple that instructors need to make it complicated since 1685
Got a Q++ at casting school, wearing shorts
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Re: The point of tapers in fly lines and leaders
I think that Bruce is comparing to a line that has a head a) not compound front and b) has heavier line behind the compound front, which it would if they both weigh the same at 30’. I think b) is rather important.
I’m in both camps, Will. I don’t think one excludes the other.
Cheers, Paul
I’m in both camps, Will. I don’t think one excludes the other.
Cheers, Paul
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Re: The point of tapers in fly lines and leaders
Paul,I think Gordy would tell you that less mass means less momentum change at the loop front and therefore less force pulling the line
I am not the one who came up with that explanation. Rather it is the viewpoint of researchers such as Lingard, Spolek, and Gatti-Bono who have written papers on the subject.
The effects of the tradeoff between the positive acceleration acceleration force on the line produced by the tension at the top of the loop and the negative acceleration due to drag forces on the line and fly were discussed on the old board at:http://sexyloops.co.uk/archivedboard/vi ... 24&t=12479
Thanks to you for getting that valuable resource restored.
The slowdown of the line due to increased energy dissipation is a red herring concept.I would love to hear a clear explanation. In particular I would like to understand why a whip tapers to crack and a fly line tapers to dissipate energy.
Both the drag losses and the positive acceleration due to the momentum change of the mass going around the loop depend on the square of the velocity so an increase in the velocity is not going to favor one over the other.
It should be noted that the properties of the tear shaped loop that is propagating down a tapered whip is different than the u-shaped loop that is propagating down a fly line. Thus the effects of taper on a whip are much different than the effects of taper on a fly line.
Gordy
Re: The point of tapers in fly lines and leaders
Maybe it's just me, though I doubt it, but I am wondering why this stuff about angular momentum has been granted asylum in this part of the Board. What has it got to do with Fly Casting, as in how to do it, better?
Cheers
Mark
Cheers
Mark
"The line of beauty is the result of perfect economy." R. W. Emerson.
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Re: The point of tapers in fly lines and leaders
Other thread Mark? But yeah, I agree, the original poster should have put the angular momentum thread in TechAnal.
FFi CCI
Re: The point of tapers in fly lines and leaders
A taper can magnify velocity in a fly line and a whip via the same principle shown in this video. Momentum from a heavy object is transferred into a lighter one, which is then transferred into an even lighter one. To maintain momentum, the velocity increases.
For the mechanism of how the energy can be dissipated through a taper, I'll need to explain that with a tracked video tonight. I'll do that in the angular momentum thread and put a link below later.
Cheers,
Graeme
For the mechanism of how the energy can be dissipated through a taper, I'll need to explain that with a tracked video tonight. I'll do that in the angular momentum thread and put a link below later.
Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI
Re: The point of tapers in fly lines and leaders
Yeah I thought about that. But it's both threads really. Same creep into same subject matter and my objection goes well beyond forum taxonomy but will leave it at that. Rant mode cancelled.
Cheers
Mark
"The line of beauty is the result of perfect economy." R. W. Emerson.
https://thecuriousflycaster.com
https://thecuriousflycaster.com