\|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

[Paul Arden]

Yep no problems “grip shifting” carbon grips, George. Arguably they are better than cork in this regards because you can align the rod with pressure between thumb and forefinger only.

They also look like giant black dildos!

Cheers, Paul

[Phil Blackmar]

“Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things." Sir Isaac Newton

I have made up my mind although there is some overlap.

Up to 60’ short stroke control line with haul
60-90’ rotate thru with some extension
Over 90 open grip late rotation more body rotation

That is of course casting over the top. From the side is a different matter altogether. That should clear things up.

Btw Paul, I mailed your wraps Wed. Should be enough to experiment with. (9)

[Paul Arden]

Wow - thanks Phil! That should allow me to make a few wrapping mistakes as well Looking forward to trying different rib configurations.

Thanks,
Paul

[Phil Blackmar]

I'm curious Paul, you didn't take the bait. I know you said you rotate thru the stroke on shorter shots. I mentioned using the haul on shorter shots out to 60' for control rather than rotating thru. I think the difference may be that I'm evaluating using saltwater flies vs trout flies or yarn. This week I've been using the 5 MED again on a 6wt with a decent size clouser for a fly. I seem to get a better layout when pulling the fly with the haul and opposed to casting it with the rod hand......

I have also found the snap that works for me at the end of the stroke for more speed while also tightening the loop on longer (fishing) casts. IT feels like how you would release a flat stone to skip it across the water except in a more vertical plane rather than side arm. The snap feels like zipping the stone forward and not down. I imagine its close to your description of throwing over a tree. Whatever it is, I like the feel and results..

All the best.
Phil

[Paul Arden]

Just because you’ve made up your mind on something now, Phil, doesn’t mean that you won’t disagree with it in the future I do this all the time!

However like you when casting heavier gear, particularly 12WTs, I am much more compact and more likely to rotate from the shoulder and less so with a late wrist. 100’ with such tackle is a seriously long fishing cast.

I agree that the stroke changes slightly for heavier tackle. I fish 8 and 10s for Snakehead. And I definitely have more “finger” control with the 8. I get higher line speed too. But I rarely take long shots because it’s far better to watch the fish and not just the rise. Apart from which they’ve usually gone by the time the fly arrives

So a good casting exercise that might help you decide on preferred technique (for a while!) is to make your shot and then remove power for the same shot until you can do it with as little force as possible. This will show you the most efficient technique and allow you to make small adjustments. And then as you reintroduce speed you can play around with how to do it. Dead slow to blisteringly fast. Mind you by the sounds of it delicate presentation is more important for you, but it’s still a good exercise

Cheers, Paul

[Phil Blackmar]

Hi Paul-

The reason I am experimenting with different ways to throw a good distance with a variety of size rods/lines and with a variety of large and/or heavy flies is to adapt my fly fishing to areas normally reserved for spin or plug. For instance, I caught 3 trout blind fishing the surf the other day throwing a deer spun head 6" fly on a 9 wt set-up. Distance is imperative to cover lots of water plus you are standing in knee to waist deep waves which can cause problems. Few false casts are also a requirement so you don't wear out your shoulder.

Another application is for Cobia around the oil rigs. Blind casting is best served with long casts from a rocking boat and if they do pop up on the surface, the ability to get the fly to them from long range dramatically improves the odds.

With that said, I have found for me, the best way to throw a large wind resistant and sometimes heavy fly the farthest with the least amount of effort is to delay rotation. Take a look at these below:

.

.

With an open hand snap and late rotation, I can use more body rotation when I want and also tighten the loop. Shortening the stroke works better for more controlled sight fishing range fish, however. Curious what you think.......

Phil

[Paul Arden]

I agree on all points Phil. That’s great!

Looking back I would say that the two things that really improved my distance casting and ability to make long shots has been working Carry and Stopless. Even now instead of practising distance/launch I will practise carry most of the time. But I will practise this with lighter gear.

I definitely find that compact stroke you are using much better for heavier tackle.

Cheers, Paul

[Phil Blackmar]

Hi Paul-

I find there is a cast between conventional (stop) cast and the stopless cast. It's a compact stroke in the distance the hand travels but with much more wrist hinge and/or open hand similar to the stopless cast. I really like letting the weighted feeling of the rod and line when starting forward open the hand and soften the wrist so the rod lays back to a near horizontal plane. I also find using this cast on shorter shots in the 50-60 foot range softens the landing of the fly...just a few thoughts....

[Paul Arden]

Yep I’m with you Phil. That’s how it feels like to me. It’s a really tactile feeling.

I’m not sure where you want to go next but I can thoroughly recommend carry. That’s the one thing that’s really made me a fly caster. I can spend hours doing that Just go and find something to stand on and do the same thing!

Cheers, Paul

[Phil Blackmar]

Stand on?? I just throw off the ground...

I will never reach your or some of the other guys on this site when it comes to 5 MED distance....My goal is to become an expert saltwater fly caster. I do very little freshwater fishing. I live on the coast which has created the saltwater niche. There are times when a long shot gains a significant advantage and other times a silent well placed approach is necessary. I want fly casting to become second nature where the timing and rhythm are never a thought. I want to be comfortable in all wind directions with all size and weight flies and with 5 wt- 12 wt rods where I am capable of throwing a well controlled loop and accurate layout to all fishable distances.

I threw a 5 MED on a 6 wt rod for two weeks everyday while on the road recently and improved dramatically. Then I came home and have thrown mostly 9-12 wt's with big heavy flies. You fired me up with your comments earlier today so I took the 5 MED for a spin again and I struggled a bit after focusing on the heavier stuff for the past week.

Anyway, I have a nice sidearm shot, a nice sidearm roll over shot, a nice upside down loop for an ultra quiet presentation, I'm pretty good two different ways with a bad wind direction, decent with a curve cast, only so so with heavily weighted flies, decent with the Belgium cast, pretty accurate, good with all rod weights, tracking on longer shots finally getting better, decent with loop control on fishing distance casts, pretty good on distance control and so on.

My current obsession is to have total control with tracking and loop generation at 80-100 ft. with each rod and each variation in fly size and weight and in all wind directions.

I will never catch up to you guys on 5 MED distance. If I try, I will be in the hospital waiting for shoulder surgery.

Hope this answers you question....

Thank you

Phil