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\|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

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Geenomad
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Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

#31

Post by Geenomad »

Don't give up yet Alex, there's more confusion to come. :D No, seriously, the idea of late rotation refers to how the rod behaves. Mostly, you want the rod to translate before it rotates so rod rotation happens "late" in the stroke. If one switches attention to what the body should be doing in order to make the rod do what it ought to do then there is ideally a process/sequence of body movement which is mostly made by rotating parts of the body.

In technical terms the biomechanics of throwing involves a proximal to distal sequence where proximal refers to parts closer to the middle or core and distal refers to parts further away from the core. A full distance cast will involve nearly all the body with weight transfer, trunk rotation, and all the parts of the arm. A very short cast might involve not much more than movement of the forearm and hand at the elbow and wrist joints respectively.

Bottom line is rotation of body bits produces both translation and rotation of the rod. HTH

Cheers
Mark
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askel
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Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

#32

Post by askel »

Geenomad wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 1:10 amrotating parts of the body
I knew it's not gonna end well. :D
People do gardening, antique car restoration, sky diving. No, it had to be bloody fly fishing!
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Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

#33

Post by Paul Arden »

To be fair we were and are figuring this stuff out as we go :D

22 years ago fly casting was mostly a big spring, the anchor loaded the rod, double hauling increased rod loading and finished at butt stop, the rod unloaded because of butt stop and flyfishing was sexy. And even though those things have all since been proven to be wrong, we did still manage to cast flies back then and catch big fish :cool:

The SLP I’ve always thought of as a simplified matchstick man type of image that you would see on those Open University programmes, broadcast in the very early mornings that only students and insomniac children would watch (and probably not many students!). That and the Test Card had a major impact on my psychosis.

To be honest I don’t think we’ve really fully figured out delayed rotation yet. We know how to do it. We know how to teach it and get results. But I think what we are teaching is still most probably not a perfectly accurate interpretation of what we are doing. I’m starting to think it’s more of a force application thing, and that the force “spike” is mostly applied close to or even after MCL - certainly not at the beginning of the stroke.

One thing is for sure, competition distance flycasting is improving. Just look at 5WT distance results over the past 15 years and you can see the improvement and it is measurable. I also believe that there is yet more distance still to be found through technique advances.

The fact that it hasn’t all been figured out yet makes it fun :)

Cheers, Paul
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askel
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Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

#34

Post by askel »

Paul Arden wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 5:56 am The fact that it hasn’t all been figured out yet makes it fun :)
That's all good and fine. Please keep it sane when you explain your findings to novices. We take everything literally. And that hurts.
nicholasfmoore
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Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

#35

Post by nicholasfmoore »

sometimes it's best to not read too much into things, such as Mels pull and push through terms 😂 When I mention it to a student they cast very well, when we explain/over analyse we loose the magic. As with all casting I believe it should always be results first, physics later.

You don't have to know how a piano works to play very well. 😊 I'd check out Paul's masterclass, it is excellent (unsurprising). I finished watching them the other day and I'm going to borrow a few things he mentioned in his videos for my own teaching. 😜 I do understand your frustration though!

All the best!
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:
askel
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Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

#36

Post by askel »

Paul Arden wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 5:56 am To be fair we were and are figuring this stuff out as we go :D
I hope you understand that it was a joke. Probably a bad one.
askel
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Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

#37

Post by askel »

nicholasfmoore wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 11:08 am sometimes it's best to not read too much into things
That's exactly how it feels
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Paul Arden
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Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

#38

Post by Paul Arden »

I take your point Alex!! It is obviously a problem - on one hand we are all trying to improve our own casting techniques and then there are discussions between competitors, discussions between instructors, instructor to student discussions and there are physics discussions. It can be pretty bewildering! I don’t mind telling you, that I often find myself completely lost in the physics discussions :D

One thing I would ask, is that if you, or anyone else for that matter, doesn’t understand anything at all - or is confused - then to please ask. As far as I’m concerned if I can’t explain it simply, then I just don’t understand it. I will be the first to put up my hand to say that I don’t understand everything and in trying to teach flycasting, I frequently discover this fact :D but hopefully I learn a little bit more each time.

Delayed Rotation is an interesting one. I was first switched on to it through the Board about 20 years ago. I applied it to my own cast. First it was called The Slip (Herb Spannagl) and Drag (Bruce Richards). Then I learn from Rick Hartman who had an extreme - and electric - form of it in his casting. And after learning it I started teaching it. Twice I’ve been picked up for teaching how it feels to me, and I imagine how it feels to most other people, and in both cases video has shown that I’m not doing what I think I’m doing. But it’s all a learning process - and no one has ever learned anything by being right all the time :pirate:

Anyway teaching how it “feels” is usually far more effective than teaching how it works! For distance flycasting I simply try to “hit it” as late as possible and through a rotation at the end of the stroke. That’s how it “feels” :D Apparently I’m not doing that - but if that’s how it feels for you too, then you won’t be going far wrong!!

Cheers, Paul
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Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

#39

Post by Phil Blackmar »

Hi Paul-

You mentioned that it's best to have very little forward movement or translation during the power portion of rotation. Wouldn't this be explained nicely by thinking of two handed casting where the power comes from the action of the bottom hand? Another way of looking at it is the sequence of the body and rod build energy like stretching a rubber band and is most efficiently transferred when everything else stops as the rubber band is released.

Second-on longer casts, when I use early rotation and less translation, the timing of my haul and power application is better. When I hinge my wrist more in the beginning of the stroke, delay rotation and use my body during translation, I gain way more line speed...BUT, I have the hardest time delaying my haul and wrist snap long enough. This forms a more rounded loop which also opens more...Any suggestion?

One other note. I have been casting a lot lately. It has become clear to me why, when I throw side arm to 3/4, I get a more effective, powerful and level pull during translation. I have decided the reason is in this range of planes I use my body and shoulder rotation during this phase of the cast. When I stand square to the target and use a vertical rod plane, I struggle to get the same effective pull. So, the other day I tried tilting my shoulders so they could rotate with a vertical rod. It feels great, I get more power and is easy to do. Now I'm left with the conundrum of the purist in me wants to stay conventional with level shoulders and the athlete in me says "screw what you look like. Your'e not pretty anyway"....LOL
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Re: \|/ or \\\|/ Push Vs Pull, rotating through the stroke or at the end of the stroke

#40

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Phil,

Yep those are good questions! I agree very much with your last point however tracking has to come first and a vertical loop if – and it’s a big if – ultimate distance is what you want. I come off the side often when fishing. I use trajectories to stop the line kicking and it has the advantages of keeping the rod plane lower and stealthier - a vertical rod plane is great, but not if you are making a fast close range shot.

I’ll have a play with tilting the body over, that’s an interesting idea; I often do it the other way around with side casts, tilting from the waist to keep the hand closer to the body, because on the flip side, when I take the hand too far away from the body it feels weaker. I’ll report back.

I agree with you on the double handed comparison. What I find interesting is even with short range accuracy, is that if I pull in with the elbow back in towards the body on the delivery, I can generate high line speed and it’s certainly easier to be more consistent than by thrusting.

Now to the haul. :) There are a few ways of practising this. The timing of the haul “zip” is around when the rod butt passes the perpendicular (or minimum chord length). Your stroke should also feel that it is based around the haul and not the other way around IMO.

So a couple of practise exercises. The Triangle Method, laying the line down, and carefully coinciding the second part of the stroke, post-perpendicular rotation, with the haul acceleration. https://www.sexyloops.com/flycast/the-triangle-method/
https://www.sexyloops.com/flycast/the-double-haul/


Another exercise is short to long video which I posted on Tuesday FP. Instead of concentrating on the Rod Hand/Stroke however, concentrate on the haul. https://www.sexyloops.com/index.php/ps/out-and-about

A final exercise I can recommend is everything in slow motion apart from the final movement which is a flick of the hand plus a haul acceleration. In all of these exercises the final part of the acceleration coincides with the haul.

What I would recommend, with all of these exercises, is to try varying the haul speed. Make slow, medium and fast hauls and really concentrate on feeling the line “weight” with the hauling hand (not the rod). For me it’s tactile and around the thumb.

How have you been? :)

Cheers, Paul
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