PLEASE NOTE: In order to post on the Board you need to have registered. To register please email paul@sexyloops.com including your real name and username. Registration takes less than 24hrs, unless Paul is fishing deep in the jungle!

Curve Casts

Moderators: Paul Arden, stesiik

Post Reply
Bianchetti Ivan
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:25 am

Re: Curve Casts

#61

Post by Bianchetti Ivan » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:58 am

Bianchetti Ivan wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:39 am
Paul Arden wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:59 am
Thanks Ivan. To be honest I’m struggling with this one. I’m not quite sure where the backcast is supposed to be.

This is how I look at curve casts (not mends)...
To understand how to do it, 30 years ago maybe more, I did thousands of tests, the most efficient are these, while the rod advances, I make a small click with the wrist to the right together with the loop, a small wave is formed (the term wave is to simplify) to the right, I wait for the barrel to move forward and wait, I will see as a result that the loop will unwind on that wave slowing down, then I will do the same test advancing with the barrel I will make a small click to the left and do the same thing , but on the opposite side, here's if I put the same shots in one launch, the second shot will determine that the first unrolls the loop, which will be in the direction of the first wave, accentuating the curve, the shots must be proportionate to what you want to obtain. (in your drawing they do not correspond, perhaps because, the waves are obtained on the part below the line, the one attached to the rod)Maybe how you do it works better, I don't know😢😁😅
Attachments
IMG_20200219_124944.jpg

Bianchetti Ivan
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:25 am

Re: Curve Casts

#62

Post by Bianchetti Ivan » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:38 pm

Paul Arden wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:14 am
Got it Ivan. OK those would be Curve Mends for me. And yes there are a whole bunch of those. Cast being a result of the Casting Stroke (fly leg of the loop) and Mend occurring after loop formation (RSP) (rod leg of the loop). There are presentation casts that involve both - Jasons Corkscrew Curve for example. You can also use Snake and Snap Mends to control the end of the line/leader.

Here you go Mark :D

opposite_curves.jpeg
A standard-horizontal svirgolato is probably something very similar, except that you are creating a "transverse wave" in the fly leg from which the the tail does not intersect the rod leg but :
turns above it if you make a standard side-cast svirgolato — and propulse the leader to the left then to the right
turns under it if you make an undertip svirgolato — and pulls the leader to the left then to the right (prepare a good reserve of leader and tippet for this one :whistle: )
turns vertically to the right or to the left of it if you make this cast on a vertical plane — and pulls the leader down then up.
Thanks Malik, great post! I've never succeeded under the tip. This is something I shall play with!

Cheers, Paul
Yes Paul they are in a wide movement, but if you do them first right above and then left below, almost simultaneously, with a small gesture of the wrist, moving the tip of the barrel a few centimeters (30/40 cm) a blow destroys the other and the loop moves becomes curved, the inertia brings the launch forward.

User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 13659
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Answers: 1
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Re: Curve Casts

#63

Post by Paul Arden » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:11 am

Hi Ivan,

I think it's important to point out that the wrist movements will only move the rod tip from side to side if the rod/casting plane is canted/tilted. Without this the rod simply turns around its own axis and had no affect on tip path.

Maybe in order to fully understand curve casts we need to know:

- line position at the beginning of the casting stroke
- casting/rod plane
- loop plane
- tip path
- amount of force.

For curve mends we need to know:

- loop plane
- tip path
- timing
- amount of force

And then we have curve cast-mends, where we need to know all of the above. (I'm not sure if that list is complete; I wrote it on the back of a matchbox).

Oh we also need to consider hand/body movements. But I think that's secondary. Once the cast has been categorised then we can consider the different variations in body movement we can use to achieve it. For example when I make a right underpowered curve I turn my wrist through almost 180 degrees using the thumb to sight the curve - but that's not essential to the cast because I could actually achieve exactly the same result by simply moving my hand to the left.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions

User avatar
Graeme H
Posts: 1813
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:54 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Curve Casts

#64

Post by Graeme H » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:47 am

When I show people how to perform the Svirgolato, my first step is to make sure they can cast a vertical loop with a horizontal rod. The second step is to get them throwing a cast that would normally produce a horizontal tailing loop with a horizontal rod.

The combination of a chord length shortening in the horizontal plane (convex tip path if viewed from above) and a vertical loop plane produces a curved cast from that tail, in my case, towards the right.

I personally accentuate the tendency to tail in the horizontal plane by aiming my preceding back cast way off the 180˚ line in the direction I want the curve to propagate. Svirvolato curve to the right means my back cast is also out to the right. (This is the same as throwing a very high back cast high to ensure a tail in a vertical overhead cast.)

Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI

Bianchetti Ivan
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:25 am

Re: Curve Casts

#65

Post by Bianchetti Ivan » Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:33 am

Paul Arden wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:11 am
Hi Ivan,

I think it's important to point out that the wrist movements will only move the rod tip from side to side if the rod/casting plane is canted/tilted. Without this the rod simply turns around its own axis and had no affect on tip path.

Maybe in order to fully understand curve casts we need to know:

- line position at the beginning of the casting stroke
- casting/rod plane
- loop plane
- tip path
- amount of force.

For curve mends we need to know:

- loop plane
- tip path
- timing
- amount of force

And then we have curve cast-mends, where we need to know all of the above. (I'm not sure if that list is complete; I wrote it on the back of a matchbox).

Oh we also need to consider hand/body movements. But I think that's secondary. Once the cast has been categorised then we can consider the different variations in body movement we can use to achieve it. For example when I make a right underpowered curve I turn my wrist through almost 180 degrees using the thumb to sight the curve - but that's not essential to the cast because I could actually achieve exactly the same result by simply moving my hand to the left.

Cheers, Paul
Yes Paul you are absolutely right, for this reason when I teach it I talk about the wrist (although in reality I could avoid using it) but if I show what happens it is easy and precise, I usually place the tip of the rod on a fixed point, stretching forward the arm that holds the barrel, turn the wrist and the student can see how much the tip moves, with this you can always have the same size and speed to get the curve, it also becomes easier to apply the force without moving too much, I also always say , that the necessary force is what is needed to hit a target in front of them, I also say that it is essential that the loop is tight and fast (a necessary condition to get the terminal stretched out, if you are not launching sideways, you must lower the tip of the cane, wait for the line to pass and then raise it. (I hope there is something useful).

User avatar
Malik
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:05 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Curve Casts

#66

Post by Malik » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:08 am

Graeme H wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:47 am
When I show people how to perform the Svirgolato, my first step is to make sure they can cast a vertical loop with a horizontal rod. The second step is to get them throwing a cast that would normally produce a horizontal tailing loop with a horizontal rod.
Excellent way to teach it, Graeme. I sometimes do as well, initiating by your step 2, which is according to me a bit easier than the step 1.
When a student manage to cast a vertical loop with an horizontal rod, half way to the svirgolato is done. Just add the good timing for twisting the tip at the stop, and that's it !

M.

Bianchetti Ivan
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:25 am

Re: Curve Casts

#67

Post by Bianchetti Ivan » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:44 am

Bianchetti Ivan wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:33 am
Paul Arden wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:11 am
Hi Ivan,

I think it's important to point out that the wrist movements will only move the rod tip from side to side if the rod/casting plane is canted/tilted. Without this the rod simply turns around its own axis and had no affect on tip path.

Maybe in order to fully understand curve casts we need to know:

- line position at the beginning of the casting stroke
- casting/rod plane
- loop plane
- tip path
- amount of force.

For curve mends we need to know:

- loop plane
- tip path
- timing
- amount of force

And then we have curve cast-mends, where we need to know all of the above. (I'm not sure if that list is complete; I wrote it on the back of a matchbox).

Oh we also need to consider hand/body movements. But I think that's secondary. Once the cast has been categorised then we can consider the different variations in body movement we can use to achieve it. For example when I make a right underpowered curve I turn my wrist through almost 180 degrees using the thumb to sight the curve - but that's not essential to the cast because I could actually achieve exactly the same result by simply moving my hand to the left.

Cheers, Paul
Yes Paul you are absolutely right, for this reason when I teach it I talk about the wrist (although in reality I could avoid using it) but if I show what happens it is easy and precise, I usually place the tip of the rod on a fixed point, stretching forward the arm that holds the barrel, turn the wrist and the student can see how much the tip moves, with this you can always have the same size and speed to get the curve, it also becomes easier to apply the force without moving too much, I also always say , that the necessary force is what is needed to hit a target in front of them, I also say that it is essential that the loop is tight and fast (a necessary condition to get the terminal stretched out, if you are not launching sideways, you must lower the tip of the cane, wait for the line to pass and then raise it. (I hope there is something useful).
It must also be said that, if you make a normal forward jump, when the tip of the rod reaches the stop, if you raise the tip slightly, and bring it forward by making a stop again, a curved launch will be produced, with the fly which comes towards the barrel, using the concept, on the horizontal plane, the result is obtained.

Mangrove Cuckoo
Posts: 344
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:51 am

Re: Curve Casts

#68

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:35 pm

I have the hardest time envisioning the horizontal tailing loop for a svirg curve!

Is the fly leg above or below the rod leg? Or, is it in the same plane and doesn't actually cross?

When I deliberately tail a (vertical) cast, i keep the fly leg outside to eliminate knots. But if i keep the fly leg below on a horizontal tail I can't see how to get the fly to jump over and out as it appears to do in the svirg cast.

What am i missing?
"Technique is the proof of your seriousness"

Wallace Stevens

User avatar
Malik
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:05 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Curve Casts

#69

Post by Malik » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:57 pm

Mangrove Cuckoo wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:35 pm
I have the hardest time envisioning the horizontal tailing loop for a svirg curve!

Is the fly leg above or below the rod leg? Or, is it in the same plane and doesn't actually cross?
Hi Magrove Cuckoo !

Above of course :D . It's a "crossing loop" which does not intersect the rod leg.

(you can also cast the svirgolato undertip and in this case the fly leg and the leader will effectively travel under the rod leg).


Best Regards

Malik

User avatar
Graeme H
Posts: 1813
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:54 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Curve Casts

#70

Post by Graeme H » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:26 pm

Malik wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:08 am
Excellent way to teach it, Graeme. I sometimes do as well, initiating by your step 2, which is according to me a bit easier than the step 1.
When a student manage to cast a vertical loop with an horizontal rod, half way to the svirgolato is done. Just add the good timing for twisting the tip at the stop, and that's it !

M.
Thanks Malik.

In practice, that widely thrown back cast is enough to introduce a "tail" without the need for intricate timing or twisting the tip. For someone learning a complex skill, removing that extra complexity and getting a result quickly means they can then refine technique as they practice, knowing they can go back to an easier method any time they like.

I agree: by comparison, the vertical loop on a horizontal rod is tricky. However, it is not possible to make this cast work without that skill, so isolating it is vital.

Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI

Post Reply

Return to “Flycasting”