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Saltwater Casting Angles

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Lou Bruno
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Re: Saltwater Casting Angles

#11

Post by Lou Bruno »

Paul
Can you explain the difference, if there is one, between the Belgium cast and Oval cast.
My understanding with the Belgium cast is the forward cast begins with a near vertical rod plane.
Whereas, with the oval cast the rod tip path is about 45 degrees from vertical....no movement to vertical.

Help me with this, this topic came up recently during a casting lesson with my mentor.
Lou
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Paul Arden
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Re: Saltwater Casting Angles

#12

Post by Paul Arden »

That's a good question Lou. There is an article here on the history of the Belgian Cast https://corpuschristiflyfishers.com/doc ... y_cast.pdf - (I don't agree with all of the article, I would think that there is still a point of zero or low tension with the Oval Cast at the point of loop formation).

Anyway this is the important bit:
This Cast was taught in Europe during the nineteen thirties by an Austrian river keeper, Hans Gebetsroither. Gebetsroither called his cast
the elliptical cast. The name Belgian Cast was coined by the fishing editor of Field and Stream Magazine, AJ McLane, in the nineteen fifties to commemorate the unorthodox casting style of a Belgian fly caster and world casting champion, Albert Godart.
So I would say that the Belgian Cast is an Oval Cast. However I think because of the way it has evolved, I do also see it in the way that you do. I actually learned the Belgian Cast as a side arm back cast and a vertical overhead forward cast. And you are correct that when they teach the Oval Cast in Europe it is not a vertical casting plane on the forward cast, but one that is canted slightly over to the side. ("Under the tip, over the tip").

So in my mind they can be separated; the Belgian Cast being a specific form of Oval Cast with a vertical forward cast. Not everyone will agree with that and I've heard them being described as the same thing. The question is whether it is useful to separate them for teaching purposes?

If I was organising these things I would have the Oval Cast as the category. The Belgian Cast being one of its members. Elliptical Cast being another. Arguably the Single Spey is another member.

There is no wrong in this. You can call them the same thing or you can separate them. You'd still be right :) It's another of those endless fly fishing discussions that will never be resolved and can keep us entertained for hours!

Cheers, Paul
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Lou Bruno
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Re: Saltwater Casting Angles

#13

Post by Lou Bruno »

Paul
Thanks for the clarification, especially this bit; "
If I was organising these things I would have the Oval Cast as the category. The Belgian Cast being one of its members. Elliptical Cast being another. Arguably the Single Spey is another member."

Lou
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Saltwater Casting Angles

#14

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

Under the tip backwards, over the tip forwards, was Gebetroiters mantra.

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Lasse
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Flycasting, so simple that instructors need to make it complicated since 1685

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Taylor8
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Re: Saltwater Casting Angles

#15

Post by Taylor8 »

Thanks for all of the feedback and the video, great stuff! A couple of follow-up questions/comments:

Paul - why the Belgian cast for a tailwind?

Mangrove - I’ve experimented with curving the fly upward for the soft landing but the accuracy is very inconsistent. Accuracy isn’t look bad with regular sidearm but that’s at the park with no fish in front of me when all thinking goes out the window and it’s all muscle memory.

I’ve also witnessed fish be spooked by a rod but can’t say if it was the shine or just the movement. Certainly a lower rod angle would help I’m leaning towards it not being worth the offset in precision.

Of course more practice is needed for all rod angles because as Graeme said, it depends 🙂
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Paul Arden
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Re: Saltwater Casting Angles

#16

Post by Paul Arden »

Paul - why the Belgian cast for a tailwind?
Because with a tailwind the backcast needs to be tight and have a low trajectory. It’s not possible from the pickup to make a low backcast trajectory with a tight loop using a vertical casting stoke. So the pickup cast needs to be a Side Cast.

The subsequent casts can all be vertical - at least for a longer shot. Close-mid range I would keep them off the side, otherwise you end up with a high trajectory forward cast which is not helpful.

Of course you may have fly in hand and so your first backcast will most probably be off the side anyway.

Cheers, Paul
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Malik
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Re: Saltwater Casting Angles

#17

Post by Malik »

Hi,
When we are fishing for permit, we generally do it from a boat and we have a guide behind and just above us; if the wind is blowing onto our casting arm, a belgian cast could be very dangerous for him (yes, he is supposed to put us in the best casting position, but it is not always possible and hooking your guide is not the coolest way to start a constructive discussion about moving the boat in the best position).
In these situations, as Paul wrote, a backhand cast is a very good and safe option, as you can keep an eye on the trajectory of your line and on the position of the guide.
Another option is to make a very low undertip side cast, with a good line speed, if possible under the horizontal and just slightly rise the rod tip during the casting stroke in order to give to the line a slightly upward trajectory, which helps a bit to fight the b… kick of the fly. If you are wadding, you can do the same cast and immediately after the loop formation put the rod tip in the water, in order to “fix” the rod leg of the line in the water, to avoid an aerial displacement of this part of the line due to the side wind.
Less false cast as possible. Pick up and lay down cast is always a good option in saltwater. I personally prefer long heads for quick pick up and laydown cast at some distance.
Best regards
M.
Morsie
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Re: Saltwater Casting Angles

#18

Post by Morsie »

My view - to the side - fly leg outside the rod tip. Why this doesn't work for most is that they finish the forward cast with a curved hand path rather than a forward thrust straight at the target. Looked at from behind the hand comes forward from a position outside the shoulder and finishes in front of the armpit. It needs to finish going straight forward. You won't hit your rod tip and its accurate.
Make your explanations as simple as possible, but no simpler. A Einstein.
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Malik
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Re: Saltwater Casting Angles

#19

Post by Malik »

Hi Peter,

I totally agree with you, the general tendency, with side casts, is to get out of your tracking at the end of the stroke (Its exactly the problem that many casters have with the sottovetta/undertip cast "italian style"). Here a straight thrust in the direction of the target on the forward cast solves a lot of accuracy problems.
With heavy flies the problem is even worse, because we pay cash the slightest deviation from the 180 principle : even with the straightest thrust on the forward cast you have big risk to see your fly "kicking" to the left (right handed caster) if your line on the previous backcast was not perfectly in line with your target. I think that's why Paul recommends a vertical plan, which I personally did not practice often when i'm fishing.
I would be curious to know if experienced sea anglers have other tricks to minimize the "kik effect" of heavy flies that have their own inertia.

Best regards and thanks for your fantastic videos !

malik
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Paul Arden
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Re: Saltwater Casting Angles

#20

Post by Paul Arden »

If the fly is hitting your rod tip there are two adjustments you can make in the vertical plane. One is to open your casting arc and the other is to lift your elbow into the backcast and lower it again on the forward cast.

The “Stopless”/170 is extremely useful for longer casts and you will never hit the rod tip with such a stroke. Mike’s video shows the value of more open loops IMO (although he could probably use less false casts :upside: ). I often make “stopless” deliveries with heavier flies. If the trajectory has been set properly with the backcast the rod tip can be finished pointing at the target on the forward cast. Rod tip / fly collision is next to impossible.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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