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Accuracy

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Carol
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Location: Summit County, Colorado

Re: Accuracy

#11

Post by Carol » Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:41 pm

Thank you all for your input. There's a lot of great advice.

Watching a video of Rajeff yesterday where he talks about making a stops like you're hitting a wall. He likes to hit walls and scrape his knuckles on them. Wonder what his students' hands look like. :p

Regarding consistency, the only thing I'm consistent at is inconsistency. I think that's because my loops are not "there" yet with consistency so I'm always adjusting trying to fix what I just broke. I'm working on it. (If I ever get that damn 4K Action Video Camera with the remote control that I was promised, I'll send Paul a video.)

There is also wind here nearly every day and it continually changes directions all day long. Within half an hour yesterday, it changed five times E, W, N, W, E. It's about as consistent as my loops. :closedeyes: In some ways, it's good to have to practice with that because it forces me to focus on the target and fly and adjust quickly.
Carol
Because it's painful getting flies out of spruce trees.

Mangrove Cuckoo
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Re: Accuracy

#12

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:47 pm

Hi Carol!

Accuracy in the wind is something I play with frequently. There are some fundamental concepts that are useful: speed, tight loops, turning over close to the surface, etc.

However, for side wind, I find another technique that is seldom mentioned to be tilting the loop plane.

If you have ever thrown a Frisbee (some say I minored in Frisbee when at college) it comes naturally.

If you tilt the plane of the loop into the wind with the rod leg lower it will hook the fly into the target. A vertical plane and both legs will be blown off target similarly. The opposite tilt will sail way downwind... just as a Frisbee will.

I find a lot of similarity between an unrolling loop and a spinning Frisbee in flight.... but that may be a result of other things I also did too much in college?
"Technique is the proof of your seriousness"

Wallace Stevens

John Waters
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Re: Accuracy

#13

Post by John Waters » Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:27 am

I agree Paul, I think a disconnect exists in casting instruction between the accreditation program levels and world championships that does not exist in other sports and that gap needs to be filled by tournament casters and their associations, national and international. The issue that always springs to my mind is let's say there is a individual who has a goal to win a world casting championship. How does that individual access a strategy, resources, instructors, coaches, technique and training documentation within a structure that facilitates him or her to best achieve their goal? I think the British Fly Casting Federation and Lee's casting programs are a great start in developing such structures and other national and international bodies need to increase their output on casting development, particularly technique and training documentation. There has been a lot of discussion about casting sport development but I believe that is the most important task facing the sport. It will be interesting to see what develops.
For accuracy casting the trajectory is critical and it changes at each distance. Where the fly becomes visible at 7 metres is different from where it becomes visible at 15 metres, so it is important to practice at the distances you need, whether that be CCI/MCI fixed distances or tournament courts at varied distances. Where you see the fly in relation to the hoop is what you need to identify for each target distance. As the trajectory changes, shorter distances result in the fly becoming visible against different target sight or reference position eg front edge, back edge, other, but for variable targets that is your finish point, most often it is not your starting point. So learning the variability in the "vertical drop " difference between where the fly becomes visible on each forward false cast and the target "sight" point is very important. I won't bore everyone with my thoughts on casting other than to say it is better to start beyond the target and retrieve line in the air than start short and add line.
If your targets are at fixed distances like the CCI and MCI tests then you can strip line between each target. I know that is not allowed in the tests but that no-no refers to using a fixed length of line retrieve or addition whilst false casting, eg to increase or retrieve 10 feet, just apply two strip lengths of 5 feet each. You can slip line accurately whilst false casting using a count so not sure why variable targets are not used, but hey, I was once told I do not understand because I have spent my time casting fluff to fixed distance targets, so what would I know? As I said, I have not taken a test so please be gentle with me - I know not what I say or do. However there are other ways to accurately add or retrieve line without using fixed "strip" lengths and I think the best accuracy casters use such techniques at competition targets at variable casting distances to get them close and then use sighting or "feel" to adjust from there. Regarding my thoughts on always retrieving back to a target, it is advantageous to false cast beyond the target and retrieve line back to the target, rather than look for the fly short of the target and then extend line. The vertical drop distance is shorter and more visible when starting from the "too long" position. The second advantage is that when using a "too long" starting position, from which to adjust your cast length, you are looking across the target to the fly, and the relativity between the fly and the target is much more visible, than when starting from a "too short" position. The third advantage is the same starting position for length judgement is that it aids consistency and minimises margins of error.

Hope that makes sense.

Waffling a bit too much methinks,

John

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Paul Arden
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Re: Accuracy

#14

Post by Paul Arden » Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:33 am

Hi John,

Thanks, that’s really great advice on shortening instead of lengthening. Definitely something I’ll play with when back on the boat again. Something I’ve been playing with recently is casting aligned and casting triangulated and using both to judge distance. Steve told me when he couldn’t spot the fly because of glare (after a comp in Norway) then he would cast at a different angle away from the targets where he could see the fly in order to gauge distance, which I’ve since used and it works a treat.

I’ve never really understood the accreditation levels in casting instructor associations. Personally I would have thought that a CI should be a professional shop / fishing lodge /club level coach. But even MCI is not seen as this level. It does leave room for a level above, and for example they could change Master to Advanced and drop in a Professional Level above. Another thing that should really happen is to solve the disconnect between fishing guides and casting instructors. All fly fishing guides should have a casting instructor qualifications IMO. And casting instructors should ideally be accomplished and highly experienced anglers.

What would be interesting would be for casting clubs to actually form their own coaching level. All the current casting associations, as far as I can see, have basically either stopped progression or are purposefully slowing it. I understand that if the exam requirements become harder then you have existing members who fall below this. But that shouldn’t be used to prevent progress - or in their case, to keep up.

But maybe the biggest problem faced is that many candidates are taking the exams to improve their own casting and not for teaching purposes. That’s dead wood for me and really creates a problem in that they are not active professional instructors, because then the association is not a teaching association.

I lost a lot of interest in it because of the headaches and resistance to improve - something I’ve never understood because how can a teacher teach properly if he has lost interest in learning him or herself? Certainly the competition world seems to be the cutting edge. I mean Christ a 75 or 85’ distance cast? That’s probably about where most of my clients come in. And I think there is at least five levels above that. And that’s just doing it let alone teaching it, or for that matter teaching how to teach it.

Agree that you can easily strip measure your way around the CCI course. That’s the problem with fixed distances. They should also have the targets at different angles to see other adjustments. But I’m no longer tightly involved in these things. What I would say however is wherever you place the bar is where people learn to jump. Place the bar higher and people jump higher.

I’ve said for the best part of two decades that if you want to become the best flycaster you can be to join a casting club and start competing. And if there isn’t one near you then make one. There is a huge amount of information in the casting instructor associations. I’ve been a member of five of them. One of them doesn’t exist any longer. They are certainly not the end of the journey that’s for sure. There is no end to this journey! :cool:

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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Graeme H
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Re: Accuracy

#15

Post by Graeme H » Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:34 am

John Waters wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:27 am
If your targets are at fixed distances like the CCI and MCI tests then you can strip line between each target. I know that is not allowed in the tests but that no-no refers to using a fixed length of line retrieve or addition whilst false casting, eg to increase or retrieve 10 feet, just apply two strip lengths of 5 feet each. You can slip line accurately whilst false casting using a count so not sure why variable targets are not used, but hey, I was once told I do not understand because I have spent my time casting fluff to fixed distance targets, so what would I know?
John

You're allowed to do these things in CCI and MCI exams.

Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI

John Waters
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Re: Accuracy

#16

Post by John Waters » Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:23 am

Hi Paul,

Triangulation is a good, sometimes I cast on planes other than vertical to change the view when fly visibility in the vertical plane is difficult or not possible. Sometimes the change of view works but there are days when the fly is not visible, so feel becomes the only guide and you hope that the hoop is under the fly when you deliver. Fly colour is also a variable and it helps to experiment with colours and include the findings in your knowledge bank for when you need it. Like your passion mate, pity we live so far apart, would love to share thoughts in person with rod in hand, rather than via a keyboard.

Hi Graeme,

The non obvious stripping techniques are fine for CCI and MCI but to my knowledge, fixed length measures using your body are not allowed. That is what I have been advising FFI test applicants.

John

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Paul Arden
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Re: Accuracy

#17

Post by Paul Arden » Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:15 am

Yeah it’s a shame mate. I really must spend more time in Australia again. I want to do a Wet Season here in Malaysia next one, but Jan/Feb are good times for me to travel. We shall see.

I don’t know if they’ve changed it but obvious strip measuring in this exam is/was definitely not allowed. I always thought that anyone who knows how to strip measure is a level above required anyway!

Agree with changing the planes. Helps avoid ticking too. Ticking is one of my specialities. :D

Cheers, Paul
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Boisker
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Re: Accuracy

#18

Post by Boisker » Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:51 pm

I think you expect too much of the casting associations Paul... I think you’ll disagree with much of what follows :D :D

Surely instructors are teaching people to get to a ‘standard’ and instructors are at ‘different levels’.... there’s no obvious need for them to be chasing a 120’ cast... it’s completely unnecessary for their instructional requirement. There are always going to be skill levels beyond which there is perhaps no recognised qualification...
if you learn to drive you get taught by someone who has been trained to teach people to the required standard... if you want to go further you can have advanced instruction, by people more qualified... if you want to go above and learn to drive ‘really fast’ you can have track days with semi-pro racers.... none of who are right at the very top echelon of driving skill... the very best sit above all of them... and there is no qualification to demonstrate it... I think a number of the ‘sexyloopers’ fall into that latter category
tis the same in all technical pursuits...

If I was looking for someone to teach me to get out to 120’ I wouldn’t hook up with just a ‘regular’ instructor... I’d do some research and find someone who excelled at distance/instruction...

Most people aren’t interested in distance or Comp accuracy.... I know there is a thought on the forum people should be.... but they aren’t and never will be...

People predominantly want someone to improve their casting for fishing distances... which in the U.K. would rarely be beyond 60-70’... I know a great instructor / guide in Devon, who takes absolute beginners and with a days tuition can give them the basics for successfully fishing west country rivers... if they booked a day they’d spend 1-2 hrs on grass then be in the river... learning side arms casts... you can hardly ever cast fully overhead on my local rivers... water loaded casts... how to wade quietly, approach a fish, read a river.... and normally catch a few on their first ever day fly fishing... wild fish, tight and technical rivers...
In the U.K. I think that’s a far more useful skill package for an association to aim for than just making the test more and more technical... :whistle: :whistle: :D

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Carol
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Re: Accuracy

#19

Post by Carol » Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:09 pm

John Waters wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:27 am
Where the fly becomes visible at 7 metres is different from where it becomes visible at 15 metres, so it is important to practice at the distances you need. Learning the variability in the "vertical drop " difference between where the fly becomes visible on each forward false cast and the target "sight" point is very important. I won't bore everyone with my thoughts on casting other than to say it is better to start beyond the target and retrieve line in the air than start short and add line.
Regarding my thoughts on always retrieving back to a target, it is advantageous to false cast beyond the target and retrieve line back to the target, rather than look for the fly short of the target and then extend line. The vertical drop distance is shorter and more visible when starting from the "too long" position. The second advantage is that when using a "too long" starting position, from which to adjust your cast length, you are looking across the target to the fly, and the relativity between the fly and the target is much more visible, than when starting from a "too short" position. The third advantage is the same starting position for length judgement is that it aids consistency and minimises margins of error.
First, I probably should wear my contact lenses when practicing. ;) Second, thank you for pointing out what I've been experiencing which is that the targets further out are more difficult to gauge the vertical drop. In fact, it's just harder to see the "hover." I have a hard time seeing the fly on longer distances until it's "turned the corner" into the back cast. The visual aid of starting from a "too long" position should be quite helpful.

I would agree that most MCIs, etc., are generalists, not specialists, and unless he/she dabbles in tourney casting, there are tricks and tips they won't know. It's just not in their bailiwick. That's what so great about this sport -- there is always something to be learned.

Paul, you are correct that measuring strips is not permitted. However, given that the test is designed so that one is always casting further, I'm wondering if measured feeds can be done. In at least one video, however, I noticed you feeding the line out about a foot at a time. If I could "master" that, it might help.

As for angling the loop plane, I've been doing that instinctively, on both sides of the body. Just need consistency in casting force so they always turn over the same. :p

Thanks, again, everyone for the input and suggestions. They are most helpful.
Carol
Because it's painful getting flies out of spruce trees.

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Paul Arden
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Re: Accuracy

#20

Post by Paul Arden » Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:46 pm

Fair points there Matt, and I take them onboard.

With regards the first part, I don’t think being able to teach 120’ is the goal! I think there is something like 5 or 6 levels above what is being expected at 75’. And they are mostly skill levels. Raising the bar by one or two levels in expectation, would actually result in much more knowledge and better teaching. Sure, there are complete beginners, but then there is very little teaching, and after this it starts to get interesting because you have anglers with 15-20 years of experience who suddenly want to learn to cast. A lot of them learn CI level casting but that’s just the second ring on the ladder. There is a lot more above CI than below it. In fact there is no ceiling.

With regards your second point I agree completely. That’s why I think Casting Instructors should be tested as fishing guides/instructors as well. AAPGAI says they do this but they don’t really.

Maybe I do put high expectations on it but most of us charge a fair chunk of dosh for an hour or day of our time and that should have value. For me it’s always been a profession. It’s never been about helping out at fairs or scout camps, but about charging money. APGAI has “Professional” in its name after all!

There is a huge misunderstanding even amongst instructors who think distance is about strength. It is not; it is about skill and finesse. Skills that can be applied to short casts too. But the distance aspect was just an example.

What is really required is a flawless teaching syllabus, where CIs are examined on their ability to teach that syllabus, and not a generic idea of how to teach casting. None of the exams reflect this because they are not specifically tailored to how you would teach students. For example you wouldn’t start of teaching false casting to a beginner and then move to wide loops, tails and then on to a Reach Cast.

So I would fundamentally change the entire system and make it logical :D

Sorry I’ve completely left the topic. :D :D

So let me get back to the subject...

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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