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Double Haul increasing rod flex?

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nicholasfmoore
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#11

Post by nicholasfmoore » Fri May 15, 2020 9:38 am

Hi all,

Thank you for your replies.
if we haul as the rod is unloading (which we do) and if we are accelerating the line with the haul, then we must be adding load to the rod.
I did think this, Paul, which makes sense as this is what we were discussing last week :) It would be great if more analysis was done to study this further.

I've seen a few people with white dots on the line, could Rio modify your lines to incorporate some white dashes at certain points? Would be a good line for research.
Incidentally if we haul before MCL then hauling must be adding some load and in this case additional bend. How much advantage is there in this?
Maybe this is why some students haul before minimum chord length, because they think it's just a spring?
If hauling early and creating additional rod bend was of importance you can be sure even Lasse would be doing it.
That's a sign of reassurance right there :laugh:

Great videos, Lasse! That's really clear mate, think you just sent me one last week ;) i was waiting for you to bring up that second video again :laugh: nice to have this all in one place, though!

All the best!
Nick M

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Paul Arden
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#12

Post by Paul Arden » Fri May 15, 2020 10:15 am

I think they haul early because that’s how it’s often been taught. If you look at most of our casts, the hands are separating prior to MCL so we all do it to some degree. One could argue that it’s possible to have some form of “haul creep”. It doesn’t help matters that instructors have even taught that the purpose of haul is to increase load which in turn creates more spring energy in the cast. The Big Spring trap is everywhere.

Slightly over 20 years ago everyone thought that the rod was fully bent at butt stop, which coincided with haul stop. I bought a very expensive digital camera that recorded at 15fps (:p) and noticed that the haul was continuing at least until RSP. Those early videos are still somewhere on Sexyloops. Prior to that we had no idea!

Cheers, Paul
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nicholasfmoore
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#13

Post by nicholasfmoore » Fri May 15, 2020 10:15 pm

Paul Arden wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:15 am
I think they haul early because that’s how it’s often been taught. If you look at most of our casts, the hands are separating prior to MCL so we all do it to some degree. One could argue that it’s possible to have some form of “haul creep”. It doesn’t help matters that instructors have even taught that the purpose of haul is to increase load which in turn creates more spring energy in the cast. The Big Spring trap is everywhere.

Slightly over 20 years ago everyone thought that the rod was fully bent at butt stop, which coincided with haul stop. I bought a very expensive digital camera that recorded at 15fps (:p) and noticed that the haul was continuing at least until RSP. Those early videos are still somewhere on Sexyloops. Prior to that we had no idea!

Cheers, Paul
Do you teach the haul to start at the beginning of the stroke or do you go straight to hauling at the stop? :)

Yes, i see the spring theory everywhere and anywhere which isn't great i must admit!

I think i've sen them, are they on your old you tube channel?

All the best!
Nick M

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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#14

Post by Paul Arden » Sat May 16, 2020 5:56 am

Well I don’t think it is hauling at the stop anymore, although that’s certainly what I wrote 20 years ago on that video. That was before stopless however! Now it’s hauling after the perpendicular.

Anyway I teach to time the haul with the stroke at the very beginning and then quickly move to a later haul timing usually within about 5 minutes. The first challenge is to get four movements instead of two ie down up down up and then I can tweak the timing.

I have tried teaching a later haul right from the outset but a few times it failed and I actually had to teach the haul timing to be through the stroke and then bring it back to being late again. (And that’s just a teaching disaster :D ).

I also tried teaching the haul right at the very beginning when first teaching someone to cast because Jon Allen told me he was getting some results with this. Well that didn’t work for me either :laugh:

Sometimes I’m amazed that we actually get paid for this. I do tend to restrict my most radical experiments (like that last one) to be on friends however!

Cheers, Paul
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#15

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Sat May 16, 2020 6:42 am

Paul Arden wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 12:07 am
Incidentally Lasse - What is the white dot you use on the line there? I still need to film the snakehead shot. I’m pretty sure I’m releasing close to MCL on the backcast. Thanks, Paul
The white dot, is a cube of yellow foam app 2×2 cm :D remember this was shot with the second generation high speed casio camera, resolution was great then ,shite today where your average mobile phone can deliver same framerate in HD.... must reshoot just for the heck of it.

And I'm sure you don't, should I send you the release timer so you can check?

Cheers
Lasse

PS. Worth checking is also how the haul affects the rod, we all agree that it must cause bend due to friction, but that most likely the initial start up friction of the haul, what happens after? Line travels faster than the rod, friction is less, maybe we don't affect the rod that much?
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Paul Arden
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#16

Post by Paul Arden » Sat May 16, 2020 7:10 am

So long as the haul is accelerating the line then I think it must be adding load to the rod. I’m not sure how much friction plays a part - one for the physics guys!

I might be able to make a light release switch here. The post is nuts at the moment. I have two parcels coming from the UK both have taken over a month so far. Can you post a photo of it please? And I’m sure I do by the way!!

Cheers, Paul

PS the problem with the block is I shoot far more than that into the backcast. Maybe marking the line like a zebra will work.
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Merlin
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#17

Post by Merlin » Sat May 16, 2020 7:17 pm

The haul subject has been covered extensively in the past, including its mechanism. The extra bend of the rod comes from the change in momentum of the carried line which becomes shorter, and this change in momentum is equivalent to a force on rod tip. It may also come from friction depending on the hardware, although I have no sign of it with modern rods in fishing conditions. The main interest is in the extra speed given to the line and alhough the extra bend can also induce some extra speed, it is less efficient than seeking directly for speed from the haul. Unfortunately, it is not possible to benefit from both phenomenon at the same time, they occur at different timings.

Timed propely, which means late, a haul tends to slightly oppose the unloading of the rod and to straighten the path of the tip. I have to check my files to see if I can get some trend for the loop size, but it can depend on many things, you know.

Merlin
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Michal Duzynski
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#18

Post by Michal Duzynski » Sat May 16, 2020 9:12 pm

Hi- look only at indicated times otherwise its boring.
Have a look here (ignore the polish bla bla bla):



- 1min 20sec the end of the line is stuck to the wall and creates resistance while being pulled, rod bends- and that was the idea of Lefty Krehs about haul adding bend.

- 2min 30sec till 3min 3sec- first slow mo is an smooth well time placed haul- small effect on rod load and the line/loop slides smoothly and fast.
2nd slow mo is shows haul too fast, too strong, rod tip and line is all over the place.

cheers
mike

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Merlin
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#19

Post by Merlin » Sun May 17, 2020 3:19 am

Sorry Mike, the rod bends backwards, not forwards, during the haul.

Merlin
Fly rods are like women, they won't play if they're maltreated
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Re: Double Haul increasing rod flex?

#20

Post by Michal Duzynski » Sun May 17, 2020 8:17 am

Cool. I learn something new. Cheers Merlin
p.s
Dont tell my polish friends, they belive in me :D :pirate:

mike

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