Where on the cork do you grip the rod?

[George C]

Thanks Paul

It's not a big deal to cut off a grip and reel seat or to extend the butt 1.5" for the fighting butt.

I'm finding that shaping fly rod grips is much more of an art, however. The process itself is simple with a rod lathe but the actual 'best' shape itself is very complex, particularly as one loosens their grip and lets the rod move in the hand while casting. The location of the swell, the rate and shape of taper above and below the maximum diameter, and the various diameters themselves make very noticeable differences. It is fascinating and frustrating how a few mm here or there can change things. Too bad cork costs so much.

I'm also pretty sure there is something else going on with 'feel" other than just a length effect.
I suspect that the distance from the hand to the butt node of the rod has something to do with feedback from the rod. Perhaps when held over the node the rod feels like it is in the clamped-free mode and as the node moves away it feels more lively as the rod unloads, like in the free-free mode, with more proprioceptive inputs being experienced by the hand? Hopefully Merlin or Gordie will chime in. Or has this all been discussed before elsewhere?

[Merlin]

Hi George

Before making changes to your rod, can you please tell me where is the position of the balance point of the rod with and without the reel.
Can you also please tell me where the center of the reel is located (horizontal distance from the end of the fighting butt to the middle of the reel).

Many thanks in advance

Merlin

[Merlin]

Oops, I forgot to ask you for the weight of the rod. Many thanks

Merlin

[George C]

Hi Merlin
Thank you for offering to help.

The rod is 9ft 7wt.
It weighs 93.8 grams
Without a reel it balances at 61cm (from the butt)
With a reel (and backing + 1/2 a flyline) it balances at 27cm (from the butt)
The reel holding 1/2 a line weighs 188.5 grams.
The center of the reel foot is 9.5 cm from the butt.

While holding the rod, on the current poorly shaped cork, the rod pivots across my middle finger about 25.5 cm from the butt. On most other saltwater rods I own this seems to be in @22-23 cm range (depending on grip shape). By moving the reel seat back to the end of the blank and changing the grip shape my hand position will likely shift away from the tip by @ 6 cm.

I greatly appreciate your input.

George

[Merlin]

Hi George

OK, I find a balance point with reel at 26.6 cm from butt on the paper instead of 27 cm. The reel is twice as heavy compared to the rod and rule of the thumb for the vibration node location in the rod butt is halfway between the reel foot axis and the balance point and here it gives 18.1 cm (26.6+9.5)/2.

The “middle of your hand” is at 25.5 and I estimate your hand to hold the rod between 16 cm (heel) and 31.5 cm (thumb top). Your middle finger lies above the estimated node by 7.4 cm. The balance point is below the top of your thumb, close to your middle finger (1 cm above) and this is not the best place to be, it should be at the top of your thumb to place the node under your grip.

Now if you come back to the original configuration, I assume that the reel moves back by 4 cm. The new balance point is at 23.9 cm and the node at 14.7 cm (23.9+5.5)/2 from butt end. You are expected to hold the rod between 10 cm and 25.5 cm from butt end, in other words, rather close to the reel. Your middle finger should be at something like 19.5 cm, 5 cm above the node approximately and 4.5 cm below the balance point. It would be better to hold the rod even lower, something between 8.5 cm to 24 cm to put the node well under your hand and keep the center of mass at the top of your hand. The node would be some 3 cm below your mid finger. Given the fact that the node moves upwards as you pull line from the reel, this would keep it under your hand for most fishing conditions.

Before shaping the handle, I suggest you have a try with the unshaped cork and test the position of your hand for comfort bearing in mind the place of the theoretical node which you can recalculate with actual values. When you think you have located the right place for your hand, then shape the swell at the corresponding place. Personally, I dislike swells and prefer a more regular shape. A question of hand anatomy I guess.

Merlin

[George C]

Thank you, Merlin.
That is, as usual, very helpful.
It will be a few weeks before I can rebuild the rod (the reel seat I needed has been delayed in shipping and I'm leaving on a bonefish trip in a few days) but I'll report back eventually.
All the best
George

[Merlin]

Thanks George

The problem we face today is that despite a large improvement in the weight of reels, they are still a bit heavy to balance light SH rods. A not too expensive large arbor reel is not very light and this is why I keep on using a Hardy Featherweight for my small glass and graphite rods. I have been fishing a very long time with Hardy Lightweight reels for trout fishing which are lighter than my Danielsson reels. Of course, you cannot compare the breaking capability of old reels with their modern successors. Large arbor reels are better to store the line and use a fair amount of backing. It is amazing to see that one can buy a Featherweight for 500 $ from Hardy today. Way too expensive! I’m happy to keep mine with me.

In the old times the rule of the thumb was to take a reel having 1 to 1.5 times the weight of the (cane) rod. Hardy recommended then to keep the balance point of the rod&reel system above the handle (keeping the butt vibration node around the middle of the handle), something like 6 to 7 inches from the top of the handle. I’m not surprised to see that some casters “palm” their reel when they use small rods. I hardly imagine that for a typical saltwater SH rod.

The rule of the thumb which I gave for graphite (the node lies halfway in between reel axis and balance point) is not valid for glass. In that case you have to consider that the node is closer to the reel (approximately 20% lower from butt end).

Merlin

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Merlin,

I have a few questions...

Can adjusting the node location by choosing different weight reels possibly make casting easier? As in, could it make casting less physically demanding?

One of my favorite types of fly fishing consists of constantly casting flies like poppers to shorelines. And whether I like it or not, I simply cannot do it all day anymore. I get hand cramps or forearm muscle cramps and I have to stop (or switch hands). It is much worse in summer when its hot, but then so usually is the fishing.

So... I'm looking for any tweaks I can find... and going with the lightest reel to meet the demands seems to have helped. But the flies and fish require heavier lines (like 8 wt and up) and the appropriate rods.

Second question: does the mass of the head of the flyline in the air on the back cast change the balance point and therefor the butt node location significantly? And what about stripping the rest of the line off the reel to the backing?

I would think the head mass should make a difference, but stripping the line off not so much???

Thanks! I appreciate your insight.