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Focus Points

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Paul Arden
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Focus Points

#1

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:48 am

Hi chaps and chapesses,

So we have a lot of discussions about waves at the moment. And yes I’m sure that thinking about a wave can help many casters. But it doesn’t seem to help the physicists! :D

When I think about these things I think you need to analyse why it might help a caster.

In the case of a wave, it’s about forming an unrolling loop (or “cast” for Michael!).

In the case of the Big Spring it’s about unloading the rod, or at least focussed on your grip to the rod and how the rod behaves.

In the case of straight top leg it’s focussed on tip path.

Now I think all three things are important. Force applied to rod butt, tip path created and loop formed. However I’m sure you, like me, focus on these different things - and many others - while training our casting. Tension, feeling the weight of the line, targets, feeling the Earth’s Energy through the soles of our feet etc

Undoubtedly for someone who has only used one, discovering another can lead to a lightbulb moment in their casting. But that doesn’t alter the physics, or make other approaches wrong.

The other issue that I’m sure you’ll have found as an instructor, if you are an instructor, is that we all learn slightly differently. Talk about “applying force” for example can lead to too much! Talk about stopping the rod and it can result in a death grip.

So physics is physics. What we do with the rod is casting. Trying to put physics first is to put the cart before the horse. The way casting has evolved is by going out there and doing it and looking at the results. After this the physics comes in to work out what we are doing. Quite often the physics doesn’t match the pseudo-physics we have imagined for ourselves in the process.

What it has taught me for example is what seems to matter is the line speed created around MCL-slightly afterwards, and not all the way to RSP. However that’s what I am doing apparently and not exploding just prior to RSP as I once thought :p Obviously I need to shoot some videos from the boat roof to be sure to be sure.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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Bianchetti Ivan
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Re: Focus Points

#2

Post by Bianchetti Ivan » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:04 am

To be honest, I never thought of throwing a wave or a vibration, I always thought of putting that rope straight, as if it became stiff, and then throw it as far as possible, releasing the part attached to the rod, as soon as possible, I thought about the waves immediately after performing these actions, to get presentation errors useful for fishing, obviously I'm ready to be wrong, I've been wrong many times and this could be one more.

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Paul Arden
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Re: Focus Points

#3

Post by Paul Arden » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:46 am

A cast is a cast, no matter if you call it a wave or a loop. I certainly have focussed my mind on forming “waves” in the past. Some 15yrs ago on the Board, Berlin/Carl was telling everyone this was the newest thing since slice bread. And so I’m quite sure that I and everyone else on the Board, had a good go outside with the fly rod. I remember doing it many times!

But then as now, there was never any equations to back it up. And if you are going to invoke physics then It should be quantifiable.

So what does it get us to focus on? I would say MCL-RSP2. Forming loops/waves, tension - all good things. It’s great to focus on this for sure, but then to make a case that this is what Flycasting is all about is a jump too far for me. It’s just one of the many components.

I think Graeme would be disturbed to hear that Berlin believed that the “wave packet” carried the fly leg. :D

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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Graeme H
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Re: Focus Points

#4

Post by Graeme H » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:34 am

I'm not disturbed by it since I don't know what a wave packet on a fly line is. :D

In my case, I don't need to have equations for physics to be useful. For me, physics needs to be predictive to have value. I need to know that if I do X, the result will be Y.

Cheers,
Graeme
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Focus Points

#5

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:12 am

If the threads are on the old board, you might want to have a look. I think I have a printout of the manual Carl wrote on it, somewhere at home, will look for it if you want Graeme 🙂

Carl called it whiplash, if you are up for a trip down the rabbithole of the old board 😎

Cheers
Lasse
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***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

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Graeme H
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Re: Focus Points

#6

Post by Graeme H » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:51 am

Thanks but it sounds like the postage might be expensive. :D

I'm sure Paul will resurrect the old board soon, so I'll read it then. ;)

Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI

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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Focus Points

#7

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:58 am

Graeme H wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:51 am
Thanks but it sounds like the postage might be expensive. :D

I'm sure Paul will resurrect the old board soon, so I'll read it then. ;)

Cheers,
Graeme
Emails, with pictures attached, aren't that expensieve 😉

And he did already, hence the rabbithole....

http://sexyloops.co.uk/archivedboard/vi ... ash#p21304

Cheers
Lasse
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***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

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Graeme H
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Re: Focus Points

#8

Post by Graeme H » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:44 pm

Ah, I'm old school! :)

I'll go through the thread now and get back to you on emails if I need more. :D
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Paul Arden
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Re: Focus Points

#9

Post by Paul Arden » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:54 pm

Physics needs the equation of how X becomes Y. Otherwise it’s gobbledegook and might as well involve flying pigs! Back then we were throwing around 110-115’. As I wrote in the other thread quite a lot of stuff will do that. Whiplash isn’t going to keep you competitive nowadays. “Stopless” hadn’t been invented back then, at least not in the competition world, and that’s the exact opposite of Whiplash.

Of course Whiplash is what we nowadays call pull-back and it most certainly has other uses.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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Graeme H
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Re: Focus Points

#10

Post by Graeme H » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:20 pm

Going through one of the iterations of an old board, I found the "Whiplash Update" thread. I guess I'd have to go further back in time to find the original thread. I don't think that would be worth my time.

I don't need equations for physics to be predictive and useful. Neither do you. You don't need to know that F=ma to know that falling off a cliff is going to hurt. You don't need to know the wave equation to know that tightening a guitar string will raise the frequency of the note produced. You don't need to know how magnetism works to pin a photo on the fridge with a magnet.

You also don't need to know the physics of a cast to place a mend in a fly line. You just need to know that moving the tip sideways places a mend in the line and that you shouldn't cast too fast. "If we do this, then that occurs."

For example, do you know how fast - to the nearest metre per second - you need to get the line moving to cast 15.6 metres into a 3.6 m/s headwind with a 5wt line and a streamer fly? Or do you just make the cast knowing that you need to allow for wind and can overpower the cast a little?

Physics equations help quantify casting, but understanding the concepts underlying the equations is enough to predict the outcome of a novel action on your part. Equations of physics are useless for most of us. Practical applications of physics have teaching and learning outcomes.

Cheers,
Graeme
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