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Loose grip no squeeze stop?

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Paul Arden
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Re: Loose grip no squeeze stop?

#11

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:06 am

Hi Carol,

for accuracy I do as John writes so well, being careful not to delay rotation in the way that I do for distance - otherwise I get a terrible kick at Loop Straight.

It depends how it’s done but sometimes I think squeeze can actually be pullback.

It’s actually quite a difficult question for me, because I don’t always squeeze, and I don’t always stop. But I do both sometimes and I certainly train them all. What I’m unsure about is under which conditions I do what!

I’m also sure that there are times when I simply use the natural body restrictions in place of a deliberate stop. I can definitely see this on the backcast with the palm forward grip. If I flip the hand over it stops there without any deliberate or conscious stop from me. My forward casts can be the same too, like “releasing a ball” ie no squeeze.

This is one of those questions that will see me back on the roof to give you a better answer. I’m in town today but I’ll be back on the ship tomorrow and will have a play when I’m back.

Thanks, Paul
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Mangrove Cuckoo
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Re: Loose grip no squeeze stop?

#12

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:17 pm

I think there needs to be a clarification as to what "squeeze" means.

There is a tightening of the grip that contracts the forearm muscles and creates a solid foundation at the stop (assuming the grip was looser to begin with).

And there is a closing of the fingers following a cradle grip which accelerates the rod tip, a move that, for me anyway, is usually not followed by a hard stop.

I am not certain which is being referred to in the above posts?
"Technique is the proof of your seriousness"

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Re: Loose grip no squeeze stop?

#13

Post by Paul Arden » Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:10 pm

This is an excellent question Gary and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it means different things to different people. For me the squeeze results in a final bit of acceleration. Indeed in some cases it can be the entire Casting Stroke, for example on a pickup and in other cases it can even result in pullback, particularly on the backcast.

However I don’t think it has to be cradle grip. Indeed I personally wouldn’t call that a squeeze. Just any relaxed grip for me going squeeze sees an abrupt movement to the rod. Sort of like a “hit”, or “speed up and stop” giving a similar result to the “micro second wrist”.

I’ve argued for quite some time that the benefit of the squeeze stop is not the abrupt stop but rather the rapid acceleration leading to it.

John looks at the blocking element and I’m really taking that on board at the moment. I’m learning much from his perspective. I’m not sure that the two are mutually exclusive however, since I believe both aspects are present in the squeeze stop.

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Loose grip no squeeze stop?

#14

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:57 pm

I think there is a lot of nuance being blurred in this.

There is the tightened grip locking the forearm muscles, what I expect John might consider a block.

Then there are the multitude of micro wrists that accelerate the rod, but do not necessarily mean the grip tightens.

And then there is a closing of the fingers, with the extreme being from a cradle grip. But Mac turned me on to a subtler form he considers "pulling", where the fingers furthest from the thumb close and lever the rod butt around a fulcrum at the base of the index finger.

All of these techniques seem beneficial (to me), but they are all distinct in my mind.
"Technique is the proof of your seriousness"

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Re: Loose grip no squeeze stop?

#15

Post by nicholasfmoore » Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:20 pm

It depends how it’s done but sometimes I think squeeze can actually be pullback.
I agree, it's like Jim Green's 'stop cast' which is actually pullback. Paul, didn't you make some videos on hard stop, pull back and stop less? I remember seeing them somewhere but i have absolutely no idea where they are. :cool:
Paul/Nick, what about the basic overhead cast? Do you use a squeeze, or do you just stop?
That's a good question, i use a variety of techniques depending on conditions (not very helpful i know) if i'm trying to make pretty loops then i just do as John mentions. :cool: i think that stopless is the best for casting into the wind, you can generate a much higher velocity than simply trying to slam on the anchors with stopping the rod. It's kind of like sprinting over a finish line, you can achieve a greater velocity if you go flat out through it rather than worrying about stopping abruptly an inch after it.

Using pullback for me is about getting into hard to reach areas as it forms a super tight loop, such as a narrow gap between trees etc. Like Paul i don't always squeeze or simply stop.

All the best!
Nick M

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Carol
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Re: Loose grip no squeeze stop?

#16

Post by Carol » Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:03 am

Mangrove Cuckoo wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:57 pm
There is the tightened grip locking the forearm muscles, what I expect John might consider a block.

Then there are the multitude of micro wrists that accelerate the rod, but do not necessarily mean the grip tightens.

Mac turned me on to a subtler form he considers "pulling", where the fingers furthest from the thumb close and lever the rod butt around a fulcrum at the base of the index finger.

All of these techniques seem beneficial (to me), but they are all distinct in my mind.
Thank you for this, because it better clarifies what it is that I'm doing when locking the forearm muscles. Whenever I try to use the Joan Wulff sponge squeeze, I tend to shock the rod. So I gave up on that and simply started locking the forearm. I never thought of it as a block, but that's exactly what it is!

I learned the same pulling technique from Mac (and Jonathan Walters) wherein the pinky and ring finger pull back into the palm. Combined with the lower hand grip that Mac uses, I use this stop a lot, especially after the stroke in roll casting for the delayed rotation, adjusting the amount of pressure applied for a given distance.

Thank you!
Carol
Because it's painful getting flies out of spruce trees.

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Re: Loose grip no squeeze stop?

#17

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:34 am

What an excellent analogy.
It's kind of like sprinting over a finish line, you can achieve a greater velocity if you go flat out through it rather than worrying about stopping abruptly an inch after it.
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Re: Loose grip no squeeze stop?

#18

Post by John Waters » Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:38 am

The more important issue is where the reel stops with respect to the forearm, rather than how it stops. Fingers can, and should, close around and rotate the bottom end of the grip into a block and tightening the forearm drives that.

John

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Re: Loose grip no squeeze stop?

#19

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:20 am

I think I talked about it in the rod design video, Nick. And yes I agree that they are all different Gary. Where I do have a bit of a thing, is that often it’s been said (and a bit more than couple of decades ago I would have said something similar) is that the squeeze stop is an abrupt stop which forces unloading of the rod, with the “going over the handlebars analogy” that is less of an analogy for Carol.

Whereas I think what is often overlooked is that there is a rapid acceleration (often) caused by the squeeze.

It would be a worthwhile exercise I think to break them all down.

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Loose grip no squeeze stop?

#20

Post by Carol » Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:46 pm

How would you break them all down? Richard's & Perkin's analyzer with slow-mo video? The results would be fascinating and instructive.
Carol
Because it's painful getting flies out of spruce trees.

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