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Hypothetical question on mechanics

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John Waters
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Re: Hypothetical question on mechanics

#31

Post by John Waters »

Hi Phil,

The arm and hand are both essential components of all throwing (including casting) sports, the difference in an arm centric versus a body centric technique is how and when the arm and hand are activated within the action. A body centric throwing or casting technique must have "elements of arm or hand motion awareness and manipulation" because the arm and hand are activated in order to throw or cast. An arm centric throwing or casting technique must also have "elements of arm or hand motion awareness and manipulation" for exactly the same reason. You cannot throw anything without arm and hand movement activation hence it transcends both body and arm centric techniques, the key difference is how and when the arm and hand are activated. I refer to two essentials, the range of movement and the sequence of activation of each body part segment within that range of movement, including the arm and hand. That is the essence of casting, as it is in all sports.

I am not a golfer but when I watch a golfer I see a lot of similarity to casting. I would liken putting to short line casting and driving to long line casting. A body centric casting technique separates the upper body from the lower body (winds and unwinds) and the hand does not precede the torso movement. An arm centric casting action is the opposite. I presume a golfer, when driving off the tee, seeking to hit the ball as far as possible but still best position the ball for the next stroke, would move his body such that he separated his of hips and shoulders and accelerated the hand as a consequence of that unwinding, body centric based technique. Putting looks completely different but is that not just a difference in the range of movement and possibly a difference in sequence?

As you have said, "In golf, for example, every player at a professional tour level is fairly body centric. Yet, swing planes, club face rotation, release, shaft planes vary from player to player. Players also vary these things to fit certain types of shots. Pitchers do the same to change the action of the baseball." It is the same in casting, different casting rod planes are employed to best suit conditions, physical attributes, casting objectives etc etc, but like golf and baseball, casters use similar variations of the basic movement and sequence technique. Casters also alter swing planes, reel face rotation, release, rod planes and that also varies from caster to caster to fit certain types of shots. As you say, pitchers do the same to change the action of the baseball, casters do the same to change the shape of the line.

The basic tenet of other sports, as it should be with casting, is the technique upon which all the variations are based. In my opinion that should be the body centric, rotation based technique that underpins all throwing, including the casting of long lines. The fact that many casters use an arm centric technique (hand initiates movement, predominantly linear based) would indicate to me that it is either a taught or copied action, and therein lies difference to other sports. I would suggest that coaches to when quarterbacks, golfers, baseball pitchers, track and field, cricket bowlers etc all instruct a body centric technique, whereas with casting a lot of instruction is based on the rod and hand or arm as the drivers to performance, and that in my opinion is unique to casting. The rod is unique but the range and sequence of the body which moves and activates the rod should not be unique to casting and should not be thought of as a arm activated movement. The hand moves in a straight line but that straight line translation is generated by rotation in other sports. I think it should be the same for casting instruction and that is why I classify casting as being unique in the instruction of arm centric, linear movement, rather than rotational based, body centric movement. That may never change with casting, and if so that's fine, all I am attempting to do is highlight the alternative that underpins other sports' instruction.

I understand your statement about restricting your shoulder rotation and your consequential improvement in tracking, as you experienced with improvements in distance using a PUALD cast. That underpins the technique I use in precision casting (precision is my objective, not always achieved) i.e. not rotating your shoulder, rather rotating the forearm and stabilise the vertical movement of the elbow with the shoulder and torso, but I do not understand the term "flattening the rod". Do you mean that in the transition from back to front the rod straightens? I would appreciate knowing what that terms means.

I understand what you mean by screwing the counterclockwise as you begin the forward cast but does that mean that you need to change the hand orientation to align the rod tip and rod butt to one plane?

I understand your comment about rotating the hand and forearm, it is a major component of the forward movement setup or cocking, of another throwing sport. I am interested in your thoughts about it being advantageous to tracking, does it adjust a preceding rod tip position within the stroke?

Glad you have added to your distance, it sure helps cover more fish.

The terms "arm centric" and "body centric" are my terms and I appreciate they are not shared by many casting instructors. I refer to instructing and coaching in my posts but I am forever the student. My casting coach has never cast a rod in his life but he is the best casting instructor I have met, maybe there hope for me yet, whilst I stick with my original statement.

John
jarmo
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Re: Hypothetical question on mechanics

#32

Post by jarmo »

Hello John.
John Waters wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:36 pm Tracking is much easier when keeping your elbow in front of your shoulder but there comes a tipping point with line control as we extend the length of line when a longer hand movement is necessary. Many fishos extend their range of hand and arm movement but still initiate that movement with the arm and do not separate their lower body from upper body with that movement. Compared to rotational movement around a vertical axis through the body, many generate translation through body weight transfer in a linear direction but that is not the better movement.

Rocking backward and forward when the elbow remains in front of the shoulder is common for short line casting because the vertical movement of the elbow should be the primary driver, not body weight movement. It is when that precision objective is replaced with a distance objective and the range of movement lengthens, then how you rotate becomes more and more important in my opinion. I agree, most use linear rather than rotational movement with double handed casting, because the gear allows the distance gains desired, rather than the body. In my opinion though, rotation not translation will generate longer distances.
Agreed.
John Waters wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:36 pm "Cocking" is the term used to position the object that is being thrown behind the shoulder, eg the photo of the quarterback before the throw, but it applies equally when we throw or cast. In our case we are casting a rod with an extended range of movement, so the technique we employ will need to start the forward cast with the hand behind the shoulder. In that case, we need to establish two key body segment positions, namely is the elbow bent and how does the hand align with the head position. There are a number of segments to throwing, two of which are the "early cocking" phase and the "late cocking" phase, both activate the shoulder, an essential to casting long line lengths. That activation makes the elbow and the hand positions an important consideration in the range of body movement at the hand static point between the backcast and the forward cast. i.e the early cocking phase of the cast.
Makes sense. I can experiment with this, but of course it would be nice if there would be a general method of doing this.
John Waters wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:36 pm I have been extremely lucky with pain, but I think you have summarised my thoughts about casting better than I have done with your phrase "starting rotation from the feet upwards helps me". I don't subscribe to Lefty's instruction but absolutely agree with your statement about rotation and feet. Where I differ from Lefty is how you start with your ankles.
So in the thread with different techniques ("styles"), we also need to differentiate between different ways to use the ankles. :)

Thank you very much, you have been most helpful.
Phil Blackmar
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Re: Hypothetical question on mechanics

#33

Post by Phil Blackmar »

HI John,

Thank you for the reply. I agree with much of what you said,
I do not understand the term "flattening the rod". Do you mean that in the transition from back to front the rod straightens? I would appreciate knowing what that terms means.

Flattening means the rod plane moves toward horizontal and away from vertical. Not a good thing for tracking..... :D
I understand what you mean by screwing the counterclockwise as you begin the forward cast but does that mean that you need to change the hand orientation to align the rod tip and rod butt to one plane?

I start with the same grip and make the same backcast...the change of direction begins with the feet, legs, hips, torso and arms in that order. By turning the rod counterclockwise, l the tip moves towards the vertical instead of horizontally and then tracks over the top..
I understand your comment about rotating the hand and forearm, it is a major component of the forward movement setup or cocking, of another throwing sport. I am interested in your thoughts about it being advantageous to tracking, does it adjust a preceding rod tip position within the stroke?

For me, it adjusts the rod tip movement as my hands start forward.

Thanks again Johm

Phil
John Waters
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Re: Hypothetical question on mechanics

#34

Post by John Waters »

Thanks Jarmo, it is a worry when the sport is simpler than the nomenclature used to describe it.

John
John Waters
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Re: Hypothetical question on mechanics

#35

Post by John Waters »

Thanks Phil,

John
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Paul Arden
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Re: Hypothetical question on mechanics

#36

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi chaps,
How do you throw a popper 90ft, when aligned hand, elbow, eyes and throwing 12/6, and not smack yourself in the back of the head?
Sorry I have a bit of catching up to do in this thread! If the fly is coming through low I think that indicates trajectory or slack line issues. Certainly it’s not an issue.
Have you passed your certification tests with this stroke? Are you able to look at your backcast with this stroke?
Yes of course. All of them. I change to open stance distance for the distance instruction. Of course closed will cast over 100’ but the change gives you something to discuss/teach.

I generally don’t watch my back cast. The only time I watch it is for comp distance (and that’s to see the back target for straightness and to glimpse the setting of the unrolling loop). Teaching and fishing I either look at the front target or communicate to the students.

(I actually used to get very disturbed when examining a instructor candidate who would turn his back to me while teaching in order to watch his loop. I would always think “does he not feel confident about his backcast?” If you are taking shots the very last thing you want to do is look behind you! We practise these casts millions of times. It shouldn’t be necessary to watch your backcast.)

Cheers, Paul
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jarmo
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Re: Hypothetical question on mechanics

#37

Post by jarmo »

Paul Arden wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:18 pm (I actually used to get very disturbed when examining a instructor candidate who would turn his back to me while teaching in order to watch his loop. I would always think “does he not feel confident about his backcast?” If you are taking shots the very last thing you want to do is look behind you! We practise these casts millions of times. It shouldn’t be necessary to watch your backcast.)
I have been involved with "watching your backcast"-discussions on this site before. I seem to have some sort of a fixation.

I used to think that watching the backcast was cheating. Currently I find it too valuable to pass. Perhaps I still consider it to be cheating. Maybe there will be reconciliation in the future.
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Paul Arden
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Re: Hypothetical question on mechanics

#38

Post by Paul Arden »

It shouldn’t be necessary. You won’t see any accuracy caster watching his backcast in competition. If you watch it when taking shots the fish moves and you lose track of it. For distance of course, it’s useful to pick the target and make sure the area is unobstructed. But what I would recommend for anyone is to practise casting without watching the backcast and to simply be aware of it. But it important not to watch it fully unroll otherwise you have no front target!

It’s not uncommon in a lesson for someone to have great backcasts, and when they turn to watch it for it to be open and off target!

Cheers, Paul
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Hypothetical question on mechanics

#39

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

I've met plenty who has it the other way around, great backcast when they look, and fat open thing when they don't, even a good bunch of instructors from rookie to high profile "gurus" 😉

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Paul Arden
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Re: Hypothetical question on mechanics

#40

Post by Paul Arden »

That is true too, Lasse It’s just training. To answer Jarmo’s question about can you watch it with closed stance, the answer is yes but only by turning your neck and not twisting at the waist to look around! The reason it often goes wrong is that the caster turns his body to look around and not his neck. If he cannot turn his neck only then he needs to change stance or use a mirror :)

Cheers, Paul
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