Hypothetical question on mechanics

[Paul Arden]

The history of the 170 is quite interesting and goes back to the time when I started to get interested in distance casting myself. That first video of Rick was the first time I had seen anything like this. He was competing in the Best of the West championships and had taken something that Jim Gunderson was doing in Idaho and added a step.

At first I thought Rick looked like an elephant and I decided I would never learn this. About 3 months later I met him again in Telluride and his casting just blew me away. I think Bill Gammel had helped straighten up and tighten his backcast. To this day I’ve never seen MED5 loops like Rick’s.

So anyway after watching Rick and casting together a few times on trips to his place in Texas I just fully adapted to it. And I’m sure that and Sexyloops has what has led to some Americans calling it “European Style” Which is nuts really because that’s not how it happened and I’ve always said it’s come from Rick. And he’s always said it came from Jim. (I cast with Jim too of course; he won the event three times in a row - a very powerful delivery caster).

As far as fishing goes, the element of being “stopless” is extremely useful. Instead of matching casting arc to rod bend, powering through the point when you would normally stop, really has transformed casting. For me that’s been the most significant change.

Also I suppose you could argue that the backcast on the 170 makes for a hell of a reverse delivery cast. I can throw 100’ plus no problems whatsoever, quartering a wind on a flat with a reverse delivery shot. It just opens up opportunities that you can’t reach otherwise. I use it all the time for reverse Snakehead shots.

We’ve been doing it for coming on 20 years now. For me I would think that learning Stopless was the biggest transition in my personal casting. It turned everything that I thought I knew on its head.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

And yes, Stefan is also moderator in this forum. That’s the problem with making people moderators. They spontaneously combust and we rarely see them again.

Stefan is a hell of a fisherman by the way! And so is Rick for that matter.

Cheers, Paul

[John Waters]

Here is a freeze frame of a stopless/170 cast used in an ICSF Single Handed Fly Distance event using a 38 gram, 15/16 metre shooting head line. Same end of the backcast body and rod position as that achieved by Rick Harmon with his 5 weight floating MED line. The caster is Karel Paulik, a Czech caster I first met in 1980, a champion caster using what was then an innovative stroke.

Very different gear, very similar technique. Casting is casting is casting and technique transcends gear and environment.

I absolutely agree with Paul's comments about casting technique and fishing opportunities. Don't know how we would describe it as a style. Maybe "a good" style may be an appropriate descriptor, if you want to add a metre or two to your fishing distances backwards or forwards, using any sort of fly.

John

[Paul Arden]

Great photo, John! The real advantage for me at any rate, is the improved backcast. I can carry 95, sometimes even 105’ with this technique. With the “blocked” backcast I top out at around 85-90’. And I think that’s why it’s still competitive to block a backcast with the MED. If the MED was 10 or 15’ longer in the head then I think there would only be one way to throw it.

Cheers, Paul

[James9118]

Hi John,

That's really interesting that someone is so successful with the T38 using a '170' stroke. I've always had issues with the line tucking in that event due to excess speed. As such, I've always backed right off the power in the backcast to try and avoid it. This has always led me to use a short(ish), blocked stroke (I also do this with the ST27). Being as T38 heads are relatively short (50 - 55ft?) how does the caster avoid over-powering it with the '170' style backcast?

Cheers, James

[John Waters]

Agree Paul, I can now false cast 90 feet consistently in good conditions but have not tried 100 feet with the MED. Adding length with the MED is certainly a driver for distance. Increased carry length and tip tension are the dual objectives in all my Trout Distance training sessions now.

John

[John Waters]

Hi James,

As in all distance casting, it is all about tension on the rod tip, that gives you those > shaped backcasts with shorter lines which are essential. We all focus on speed but that is only half the story. Loop shape on the backcast is equally important. There is a balance between adding speed and distorting shape. It has not the length of overhang potential like there is with the MED and extending the hauling line length doesn't cut it for shooting head casting. Forget the "essential" of fly casting that requires that you allow time for the line to fully straighten in the false cast before you change direction. It is a guideline, not an essential, and adhering to that as an "essential" will limit critical rod tip tension.

Would love to have a cast with you one day, love the passion Tracy and yourself have for casting and continuous improvement. That's what it is about and you both have that in spades.

John

[Lasse Karlsson]

Hi John,

That's really interesting that someone is so successful with the T38 using a '170' stroke. I've always had issues with the line tucking in that event due to excess speed. As such, I've always backed right off the power in the backcast to try and avoid it. This has always led me to use a short(ish), blocked stroke (I also do this with the ST27). Being as T38 heads are relatively short (50 - 55ft?) how does the caster avoid over-powering it with the '170' style backcast?

Cheers, James

Hi James

55 feet head, 6 feet overhang, 10 feet rod and give and take 1-2 feet between the hauling hand and the rod butt. Thats a carry in the 70's with a WF line. Or just where 170 starts working with a DT or a MED

I use 170 when fishing too, and with shorter heads

Cheers
Lasse

[easterncaster]

Hi John,

That's really interesting that someone is so successful with the T38 using a '170' stroke. I've always had issues with the line tucking in that event due to excess speed. As such, I've always backed right off the power in the backcast to try and avoid it. This has always led me to use a short(ish), blocked stroke (I also do this with the ST27). Being as T38 heads are relatively short (50 - 55ft?) how does the caster avoid over-powering it with the '170' style backcast?

Cheers, James

I have played around with the 170 stroke with my Angler's Fly Distance outfit (T19) with some degree of success. Certainly is entertaining to watch the rope and string argue with each other about who is in control, or not... Of the shooting head games, it is a more manageable one to play with - bleeding calves are not as common.

Craig

[Paul Arden]

I think the optimal point is to leave the end of the head at the very top of the loop at full formation John ie at max counterflex. That means the initial loop shape is made with running line. Which on the 170 stroke with a MED5 is about an 88’ carry. With a tail wind it’s possible to extend by a few feet and the wind will sort it out. Anything up to about 92’ for me. 95’ I find unstable with this line for the launch. In Calgary (1km above sea level) I have carried 105’. Sea level I top out about 95.

Personally I think this line requires an accurate carry. Something like the TCR/Thunderbolt line is far less critical. I’m not sure why this is.

Cheers, Paul