Rotating through the stroke

[Carol]

I just was re-watching this video that Macauley put together of Rajeff teaching at the Long Beach Casting Club. At 3:52, he starts talking about rotating through the stroke. I know Paul propounds this as well, although I can't recall exactly where I've read or seen Paul do it (likely many places). When do you start the rotation? When the hand is about even with the ear? Or does it depend on the length of line being cast? Do you ever use delayed rotation, for instance, in the roll cast?

Rajeff also factors in tip flex in the discussion. It makes sense. What are your thoughts on it? For instance, I have two 6 weight rods (I know I need a third, Paul): a Scott Radian 9 ft. 6 wt. and a Sage TXC 9 ft. 6 wt. In case you've not tossed one, the Radian is a mid-fast with a softer tip, versus the the ultra-fast TCX. Would you adjust the timing of the rotation based on the rod tip?

[easterncaster]

I love that video, especially beginning around the 4 minute mark...

Craig

[Paul Arden]

It’s a good question Carol. For me I have a fairly fixed wrist for accuracy and the rod turns over with my forearm. For distance I use wrist/fingers to turn the rod over and so rod turns over later in the stroke.

If I use the second method with accuracy I find It difficult to hover the fly without it kicking. The second method I use for just about everything else, particularly roll casts. Backhand overpowered curve casts for some reason I need to use a fairly fixed wrist.

With soft rods (I certainly wouldn’t call the Radian soft) it’s important to feed the power in gradually. But the technique is the same.

Cheers, Paul

[Carol]

I'm going to ask for clarification for the sake of my understanding. That is, if you (or anyone else) don't mind answering.

I have a fairly fixed wrist for accuracy and the rod turns over with my forearm.

So you use little-to-no wrist in accuracy? I'm finding that when I use wrist, the line & leader gets squirrely. Is that what you mean -- keep the smaller muscles out of the equation on shorter casts? (Nick and I have chatted briefly about something similar on FB.)

For distance I use wrist/fingers to turn the rod over and so rod turns over later in the stroke.

So a later turnover in distance, but not Haye's \\\\/, rather your \\\|/? And why is it now okay to use the wrist/fingers? Is is because you're not worried about the smaller muscle movements as much and need them to achieve maximum angular acceleration?

If I use the second method with accuracy I find It difficult to hover the fly without it kicking.

When you say "kicking," do you mean bouncing back, like a ball bouncing off a wall? That's what I'm experiencing, from applying a little extra power in the forward cast.

The second method I use for just about everything else, particularly roll casts.

Except for the backhand overpowered curve casts (which I have no idea how to do ... yet ...) you use delayed rotation.

With soft rods (I certainly wouldn’t call the Radian soft) it’s important to feed the power in gradually. But the technique is the same.

Do you mean you rotate through or do you mean delayed rotation but with the power applied a little less acutely? I'm not sure what you mean by feeding the power in gradually. Maybe I just haven't reached that "ah ha/lightbulb" point yet.

[Paul Arden]

Ah another time I’ll use little wrist is to collapse the cast on rollout.

Basically, Carol, rotating with the wrist at the end of the stroke adds a lot more speed to the cast. That’s why if we do this when hovering the fly it kicks over and down instead of hanging. It’s possible to do it of course but it’s inconsistent for me.

When you look at the rod and the wrist is fixed it becomes an extension of the forearm and rotates with the forearm. However when when we lead with the rod butt and use each part of the body in sequence the final act of rotating the wrist is where we generate higher line speeds.

Delaying the rotation at the early part of the stroke both allows us to utilise this later wrist motion but it also helps straighten the tip path at the beginning of the stroke. Particularly when you have a long carry the first objective is to get all that line moving in the right direction. If we sacrifice casting arc while doing this then it gives us less room to fully accelerate the line.

By “feeding the power in gradually” I mean that with a softer rod it’s more important to be smooth. With a stiff rod you don’t have that issue but then timing is more acute.

I pretty much agree with Haysie on distance and most things in fact! I have a funny story about Haysie and I but I’ll share that in the morning

Cheers, Paul

[Lasse Karlsson]

Hi Carol

Have you seen this clip I made ages ago?



Sage tcx 690 against a old berkley grayphite 4/5 weight. I hazard a guess that the berkley is even slower than your scott

This is how Haysie threw distance when I met him in Brisbane:


He said he liked my backcast, and would steal it, but I could keep my delivery
He showed me the hovering that Paul mentions for accuracy, and was rotating through the stroke to do so.

Cheers
Lasse

[Carol]

Thanks, Paul and Lasse. That gives me stuff to munch on, try, and even practice.

[John Waters]

In regard to the fly behaviour you describe Carol, are you hauling on your forward cast when you are trying to hover the fly Carol and how is the reel position with respect to your forearm after your forward block and whilst the line is extending?

John

[Paul Arden]

So I know Haysie pretty well we’ve met in Tassie a bunch of times over the years and we’ve given some courses together in Brisbane, Melbourne and Sydney. Second trip to Malaysia there was a fly fishing conclave that we had both been invited to attend. Peter had trained many of the guys for their CCI and I had examined them earlier in the year.

The event was set in a park and there were four chalets that looked ok. First chalet we go into there is me, Haysie, Simon Zarifeh and Matty Howell. Two bedrooms, one had twin single beds and the other a big four poster double bed.

Well I quite fancied a big double bed to myself and so apparently did Haysie. Matty and Simon were happy to share a room, so they did that and we waited for one of us to be shown into one of the other chalets.

But they weren’t finished yet.

Now this meant there was one huge double bed and a tiny mattress on the floor in the room that was now Haysie’s and mine. I said “we are going to have to paper, rock, scissor this”. But Haysie wasn’t too keen on that, no doubt because he thought I might win. So we both ended up sleeping on the double bed.

In the early morning, while we were both sleeping, in comes Simon the joker and strokes Haysie’s arm whispering “hey Peter”, pretending to be me, and he nearly jumps through the roof

On the second night in comes Yew Kong who claims the mattress on the floor and sleeps like a bloody steam engine. It was a fun show

[Carol]

So Lasse, what I'm seeing in the video is that the softer rod initially has more "bouncy" rebounds (to be expected). But what is most interesting is that when the bounces dissipate, the the loops look pretty much the same. Do you recall how much line you had out for that excellent experiment?