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Rotating through the stroke

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Carol
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Re: Rotating through the stroke

#11

Post by Carol »

John Waters wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:52 am In regard to the fly behaviour you describe Carol, are you hauling on your forward cast when you are trying to hover the fly Carol and how is the reel position with respect to your forearm after your forward block and whilst the line is extending?
I am not hauling because my understanding of the CI study guide and the exam expectations is that hauling is not allowed. I am, however, trying to add some additional force and stopping higher* so that it hovers straighter and a tiny bit longer. As for reel position with respect to my forearm is that it is under the forearm with less than a 45 degree angle and the reel face is aligned with the target. (I have to pay attention to this because it's easy for it to wobble, making for a wiggly cast.)

*Using western style casting stroke. Forward stroke stops a little higher and I push it a little, like pushing open a door. At least this is what I'm trying to do. If I don't, either the fluff ticks, the loop opens too much, or the fluff doesn't hover long enough for me to see it. BTW, does anyone have blinking lights I put in my fluff to see the hover better? LOL. :p

My exam is scheduled for May 21 with Jeff Wagoner and Sam Doyle. It's a private exam with just two candidates since FFI isn't doing anything official this year. We're just lucky enough to have them both in the Denver area. I guess my mentor, Jonathan Walter (the other JW besides you and Wagoner), thinks I'm close enough to being ready to go forward with the exam. I don't feel it because of the accuracy tasks.
Carol
Because it's painful getting flies out of spruce trees.
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Carol
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Re: Rotating through the stroke

#12

Post by Carol »

Paul, that is too friggin' funny of a story. I can only imagine the stories you'd have if you and Hayes had to spend a month together, that is, if you both survived it. Makes me laugh just thinking about it. :D
Carol
Because it's painful getting flies out of spruce trees.
John Waters
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Re: Rotating through the stroke

#13

Post by John Waters »

The requirement to apply only as much force/speed to the cast to unfurl the line, and no more, is incongruous to sight casting in all but perfect conditions. There are two options available if you want to sight the fly/fluff to accurately judge distance of a target, namely see the fly whilst is is moving down and back over the target, or see it when it stops and flutters before it retracts. With the former option, the fly is moving. With the latter it is stationery, albeit for an instance. Practice both but unless your eyesight is exceptional and, or, the conditions perfectly calm and the water like a mirror, the flutter option is more conducive to sighting in wind, bright sun or no sun. The heel of the hand is the body part that blocks the forward cast and it drives your forward cast's below the horizontal trajectory, an essential to sighting and accurate casting. The importance of the heel of the hand being above the corks is not promoted unfortunately and that is the key to the block, the trajectory of the unrolling loop and the speed the line unrolls, three of the four prerequisites to flutter and sighting. I won't bore everyone with how to train for accuracy, other than to say, start with an over-powered stroke and back-off the force/speed until the three prerequisites are met for your specific target distance and the conditions in which you are casting to each target. The mechanism of using the heel of the hand correctly means there is only one variable impacting rod angle on each forward cast, that being the forearm position at the block, hence your loop trajectory and speed will be far more consistent. It adds to the general efficiency and effectiveness of your cast but also and very specifically, makes the flutter, more visible. Your general casting confidence level will also increase dramatically if you know where your fly will land on your final false cast. Of course, there will be times when conditions mean you will not see the fly over the target, and that means you will need a different method for accuracy judgement. If you are casting with fluoro pink yarn over lovely green grass, (testing on a clam day in Ireland in on grass, in winter would be my choice) it is a more sight-friendly environment than water but, if you have trained the technique prerequisites, you will increase the frequency of successful distance judgment through sighting. Consistency of speed and trajectory are driven by technique and sourced to the grip and the block.

Your description of hitting a wall is actually positive, speed and trajectory adjustments will allow you to pick up the fly at that turnover and hover point. An additional technique improvement is also to rotate the rod early in the forward stroke, as Steve Rajeff does in his video. The reason it is more effective than translate, then rotate, is that it promotes engagement of the rod tip earlier in the stroke, a very important requirement.

I think it is a pity that line length judgement during false casting is not an essential component of either the CCI or MCI test structures. It encapsulates all the basics of casting technique and provides an obvious and very illustrative measure of both casting and instructional skill for short line up to say, 17 metres. It is also the primary skill improvement requested by many of my clients.

As I have said before to you, I have not undertaken a CCI test, so my comments need to be viewed from that perspective. Good luck with your test, I hope you nail it.

John
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Re: Rotating through the stroke

#14

Post by John Waters »

Hi Paul,

I remember Haysie in his teenage years when I used to pick him up and drive him to casting tournaments. I have not seen him for a few years now, always enjoyed his passion for casting, hope to catch up with him for a chat soon. Always enjoyed his company, been too long between chats. It is a silly situation with me, I travel to the US or Europe more often than I sit in a plane for 45 minutes and go to Tasmania.

As to distance casting, I like use the keyboard illustration of "C_" without a step, and "_C_" with a step. A much better representation of the best technique in my opinion. Hope we can catch up again and I can be a tad more expansive.

John
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Paul Arden
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Re: Rotating through the stroke

#15

Post by Paul Arden »

Excellent post there John. I think it’s important to point out that higher level performance is not what the examiners are looking for or expecting. They are predominately interested in tracking, loop integrity (on all casts including the pickup), trajectories and casting arc adjustments. Being able to hover the fly and cast with great finesse is not being examined. Of course if you can do this then it will give greater confidence. Anyone who has learned to throw accuracy competition should walk this task, but it’s not currently expected at either CCI or even MCI levels.

It’s funny, this is the task that many candidates worry about and it’s not nearly as difficult as they think. If your loops are nice, reasonably consistent and you can make the adjustments that you say your are doing, then it really is quite straightforward in this regards.

A very good piece of advice I learned from Steve was when the reflection is such that you can’t sight your fly, then to cast at a different angle away from the target where you can sight. Usually we can figure out the correct length hovering the fly where we can see it, even if it’s not hanging over the target.

The other excellent advice from him was to imagine casting the loop through a tunnel. Mind you I think his loops do go through tunnels!

With regards catching up, when travel is permitted again there is talk of hosting a championships in Malaysia (in Langkawi). There are quite a few serious casters in Japan now and I’m hoping some will make the trip (I’m sure they will) and we also have China, Macau, Taiwan, Indonesia, Singapore and hopefully Australia too. Maybe we can actually get something happening in this part of the world and get a competition running every year or every second year. It would be a great excuse for us to meet up, not that we need one!

Cheers, Paul
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John Waters
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Re: Rotating through the stroke

#16

Post by John Waters »

Thanks Paul, I think it is an opportunity foregone. Given it is about instructing, judging line distance in the air is an instructional skill coaches should have, particularly a "master". That is probably why I would fail my CCI test.

You are correct, it is not difficult, just not taught and therefore, not understood. That is why students are apprehensive about it. Introduce it at the basic instructional program level and the mystique dissolves.

Excellent advice on changing angles, I do that when the light is dappled. Changing your height can be also an effective strategy on difficult days. What you focus on is another aspect of line length judgment.

Good point about Steve's loops, it is all about consistency and the expectation of success, not the distraction of doubt.

How good would a regional event be in our neck of the woods? I'm in.

John
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Carol
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Re: Rotating through the stroke

#17

Post by Carol »

Thank you, John and Paul. I have this post bookmarked so I can mull over it and work on it. Part of my problem with accuracy at 45' is tracking. I just took a video of it yesterday and sent this to Mac B. for any tips. I practice with the laser pen light on the ceiling, and was also doing it in the mirror, but once there is the mass of 45' of moving line involved, it goes to heck -- total inconsistency. Shorter distances, say 30-35' are okay. If I can get the video editor to convert the file to a format other than .mov, I'll post it.
Carol
Because it's painful getting flies out of spruce trees.
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Paul Arden
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Re: Rotating through the stroke

#18

Post by Paul Arden »

It probably is easiest to upload to YouTube and embed or send to me and I can do this, Carol :)

I agree John. When I have a student with lots of fly fishing experience but is only just getting interested in refining his casting (that’s about 90% of my teaching!), nowadays I always start with targets. I think throwing at rings and making a competition out of it for yourself is a great way to learn. And it’s measurable - you can measure your improvements over time. I teach my students this game, recommend they practise it and, importantly, score themselves. What a great practise drill!

When I was talking with Carol about the CI accuracy last year, I recommended following the WC accuracy rules, making a game of it. That’s over and above anything required and a hell of a lot more interesting than casting at three fixed targets! And then when you do stick them all in one line, at fixed distances, it’s becomes a doddle. In fact throwing at targets is just good fun :)

Cheers, Paul
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James9118
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Re: Rotating through the stroke

#19

Post by James9118 »

As a slight aside, I much prefer John's description of 'flutter' rather than 'hover'. You need to have very well trained casting pixies to negate gravity and make something truly hover :D

On a more serious note, I see hover referred to a lot and I could understand a beginner or intermediate getting frustrated at their lack of ability to achieve it. I've spent a lot of time marking people in accuracy comps (stood right next to the target hoop) and have scored people from beginners through to world class - and I've never seen a fly hover! Nobody can switch off gravity.

Perhaps someone should shoot a close up video of a fly above the target - one for a cast that is perceived to exhibit 'hover' and one that apparently doesn't.

James.
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Re: Rotating through the stroke

#20

Post by Boisker »

James9118 wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 11:37 am As a slight aside, I much prefer John's description of 'flutter' rather than 'hover'. You need to have very well trained casting pixies to negate gravity and make something truly hover :D

On a more serious note, I see hover referred to a lot and I could understand a beginner or intermediate getting frustrated at their lack of ability to achieve it. I've spent a lot of time marking people in accuracy comps (stood right next to the target hoop) and have scored people from beginners through to world class - and I've never seen a fly hover! Nobody can switch off gravity.

Perhaps someone should shoot a close up video of a fly above the target - one for a cast that is perceived to exhibit 'hover' and one that apparently doesn't.

James.
Voodoo accuracy comp :D
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