Throwing a chicken, or taking a dog nobbler for a walk

[Merlin]

Hi George

I confess it just drove me nuts when I read all your post in the thread you mentioned, it’s likely why I put it aside and paid attention to other things, and then forgot it. I guess you experienced like many how disagreeable fly casting a heavy fly can be. You raise the problem of fitting a fly to a line, especially if this fly is large and heavy.

As I explained at the beginning of the other thread, it’s a matter of drag and momentum. The fly line is here to fight drag, and the leader is here to deliver the fly in an appropriate way, slowing down the fly. Introducing more mass for the “fly” can end in a separate trajectory for the line and what may be called a lure. You mention situations at the limit of lure casting sometimes which means that one has to choose whether or not the “fly” still belongs to the right category of tackle.

That is basically a question of mass versus a drag characteristic (what is called SCx over here, S being the frontal area), and the range can be large. If we take that ratio as a guideline (mass/SCx), then we can describe things going from lure to fly. If what you cast tends to move separately from a fly line, then you can ask yourself if you have the right outfit. Better take a spinning or surf rod and mono, the caricature being the rubber chicken. To cast a fly rod the fly must still be a “fly” which means it has significant drag and a rather low mass.

In the fly casting domain you may face a situation where the fly has a lot of drag and prevents the leader to rollover properly. In that case you can add some weight to the fly up to some point, which means that you have to make some tests, just like Gary does. But you have to avoid having a fly which overtakes the leader (and kicks in between BC and FC). You may adapt your leader to a heavy fly (shorter, thicker) to stay within the limits of fly casting, but this is not always desirable given fishing constrains. I personally dislike casting heavy nymphs with a trout rod and line, but what could be the solution then? Use a longer lighter rod and “drop” a nymph close to me? Add a fluo marker and fish as I was doing when I was young to capture white fish with a floater? It’s hard to say it is still fly casting and fly fishing.

The question started with Gary using added weight to cast saltwater bushy flies. That is possible with a reasonable amount of weight. Let’s review the trends when the fly mass and its drag properties can vary. We start from a situation where everything goes well, using a not too heavy nor too bushy fly. Now we have a few options to look at: we change for a bulkier fly with the same mass, or we change for a heavier fly with the same drag, of we change for a fly having more weight and drag but in the same ratio. What has to be changed in the tackle (line weight and even line length):
• I start with a #7 line and an appropriate fly. I double the weight and double the frontal area of the fly I can keep the same line on the paper. For a series of flies of the same type and different sizes the mass/SCx ratio is likely changing slowly but since the drag of the fly increases with its size you end up with the necessity to increase line size at some point.
• Now if I only double the size of the fly I must opt for something like a #9 or #10 line: it is always the parallel between drag and line size.
• If I only double its weight, I can still use the #7 line unless the fly kicks over which means we are close to the limits of lure casting and that the fly is too heavy by comparison to its drag capability. Changing line size is of no use here, you have to change your tackle.

It’s all in the mass/SCx ratio for the fly: too low and I have to go for a lighter line, too high and I may have gone beyond the limits of fly casting. I do not know of anyone trying to add drag to its fly when it is too heavy. Why not after all?

If one wants to use a longer line or head to cast the same flies then the trend is to use a slightly heavier line, e.g. one size heavier. The rules of the thumb are always the same: if you lose too much speed then you have to put more weight forward and/or use a shorter heavier line.

I’m afraid there is no issue for a heavy fly with little drag, you then have to face difficulties linked to the fact that the line and the “fly” have somehow their own trajectory, and only changing the line is of little help in that case.

Merlin

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Gunnar Brammer, the fly tier, has some recent videos on UT that delve into this topic from a tier's perspective. He ties huge flies a la Mark Sedotti, and then some!

My flies are only normal large: 4 - 5 inch streamers, and I am trying to get them to fish deeper than the common mullet fly, hence the added weight. But, as Merlin suggests, there is a point when they start to kick and ruin the cast. I am already using 10 and 11 wt combos, so going up in line weight is not an option. I find 12 wt rods/lines unsavory.

Lately i have dropped the extra weight in favor of materials and tying technique: synthetics and hollow ties... and much prefer the results.

[Torsten]

Daniel,

I personally dislike casting heavy nymphs with a trout rod and line, but what could be the solution then? Use a longer lighter rod and “drop” a nymph close to me?

You could adapt your casting to heavy flies as Tim Rajeff demonstrates:


I'm using also the tongariro roll cast.

Add a fluo marker and fish as I was doing when I was young to capture white fish with a floater? It’s hard to say it is still fly casting and fly fishing.

Haha, I did that exactly yesterday, white fish on the fly rod with a tungsten nymph and an indicator (=floater).
Nothing for fly fishing snobs I suppose




Greetings,
Torsten.

[George C]

Thank you, Merlin, for sharing your insights and also your patience.
And thank you too, Torsten. The link showing Rajeff's 'Belgium' cast from a frontal perspective is helpful.

[Paul Arden]

Yep that’s was good. Some excellent advice from Tim there. I think another consideration would be that you must put the fly opposite of where you intend to cast (which is actually quite difficult when changing planes!).

What I like about that clip is that you can tell Tim actually teachers. Sometimes I wonder about some videos I see on the Net For me that always comes across.

Cheers, Paul

[Merlin]

I have been using the Belgium cast for years, but rivers are not all free of vegetation close to us.
Did you notice that Tim does not use a weighted nymph in his video?

Merlin

[George C]

Gunnar Brammer, the fly tier, has some recent videos on UT that delve into this topic from a tier's perspective. He ties huge flies a la Mark Sedotti, and then some!

Thank you, Gary, for the suggestion.

Very interesting video, particularly the mention (also described by others) of being able to throw such huge heavy flies 90-100+ feet on 4-6 wt rods.
Doing so is obviously a gimmick, but one that demonstrates an ingenious way of using a light tackle to fish large profile offerings.

They must be using the momentum of a flyline to cast primarily the line while at the same time using the momentum of the fly itself to reach the target.
This lets them throw large profile offerings in an aerodynamically efficient position over reasonable distances with light tackle. Whether one could throw them just as far on spinning tackle I don't know.

Something definitely worth exploring.

[Morsie]

For some time I've been using a modified "170" style to throw big flies. It is almost a constant tension cast, but in a vertical plane. The big flies slow down your line speed but the long tip travel of the 170 helps overcome that. The 170 also has no abrupt stop, which of course causes the fly to kick around. It's not so effective with heavy flies though unless you use "enough gun". I invariably get stuck in the worst casting position in the boat and the 170 has saved the day many times (and the heads of my boating partners). Also good where a CT cast can't be used because of vegetation. Its one thing to be standing in the middle of river with no obstacles anywhere, another thing altogether with people, boats, vegetation etc in the way.