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180 "tails".

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Morsie
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180 "tails".

#1

Post by Morsie »

Has there ever been a conclusion on whether or not the shape in the fly leg created by breaking the 180 rule in the vertical plane is a "true" tail, or has someone come up with another name for it - is there any slo-mo footage of one forming and unrolling? I tend to call them "closed" loops as they don't seem to cross twice - as opposed to "crossing" loops which are caused by gravity..
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Morsie
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Re: 180 "tails".

#2

Post by Morsie »

This is the shape I'm referring to - the middle one - anyone got any slo-mo footage of this thing unrolling. The "non straight fly leg" answer is Ok, but I just wondered if others had views on this because its common among intermediates. I know Mac Brown talked about it in his book Casting Angles but I'm not convinced that its what we usually refer to as a tail - its a vertical tracking issue - high backcast followed by a horizontal forward cast <180 - Aitor showed it laterally as a wide bc followed by a straight fc and we get that same swinging leg. I know advanced casters can work their way around it - the steeple cast for example requires a considerably adjustment to the FC - but its not what we see in intermediates.
IMG_1386 (1).jpg
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Make your explanations as simple as possible, but no simpler. A Einstein.
Mangrove Cuckoo
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Re: 180 "tails".

#3

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo »

Morsie,

I know that I call it a tail, but I would go with closed loop too. I am not particular about specific nomenclature.

I do know that I find it a lot in these parts, particularly among intermediate saltwater casters. In fact, many seem to believe it is just the way a cast unrolls, and they are often surprised to see that a "good" loop can become a regular thing.

It kind of drives me nuts because I cannot produce this particular loop shape on demand so that I can do the, "This is your loop and this is a better loop... and this is what you are doing wrong".

I have noticed that many folks that create this loop are larger individuals with much stouter wrists than mine, so I suspect it is a product of improper input from a dominant wrist. I have also been able to eliminate it quite often if I ask them to cast with only the rod hand, so it seems it can be a haul problem too.

That you say it is from a mismatched backcast and presentation is not something I had considered, so maybe I've been looking at it wrong the entire time?
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: 180 "tails".

#4

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

Did you see Aitors clip of it?

I dont call it a tail.

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Morsie
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Re: 180 "tails".

#5

Post by Morsie »

Allowing that the acceleration is smooth, throw a high backcast followed by a normal horizontal forward cast and it will be there.The rod tip tracks straight during the stroke but the fly leg of the loop wants travel opposite where it was on the bc so its heading down and the then it gets pulled into line. Usually the fly catches the rod leg on the way through because as it unrolls the fly is dragged up and over the top. It's the vertical version of Aitor's lateral tracking demonstration. I suspect many instructors spend a lot of time trying sort out where it's coming from because they think it's a true tail, but it's often not an acceleration issue - of course that can exacerbate it - hence the nomenclature thing. The two are different.

Aitor sent me a clip Lasse, and I said to him its NOT what an intermediate caster would do. Advanced casters can make all kinds of adjustments to disprove concepts, I'm talking real time intermediate students.

Glad you don't call it a tail.
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Dirk le Roux
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Re: 180 "tails".

#6

Post by Dirk le Roux »

Could someone provide a link to the Aitor clip under discussion?
Morsie
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Re: 180 "tails".

#7

Post by Morsie »

Aitor sent it to me on FB in messenger. He has since removed it or I would post it. Maybe its on his vimeo page?
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Bernd Ziesche
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Re: 180 "tails".

#8

Post by Bernd Ziesche »

Morsie wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:05 pm but its not what we see in intermediates. IMG_1386 (1).jpg
Hi Peter,
I don't see my students shaping tailing loops (first one in your drawing) by violating the 180 concept (for me: positioning launch direction for the next cast as good along a straight line with the current unrolled cast as possible).
Aitor additionally has proved this in several slomo videos. One of himself and one of Paul as well come to my mind.

Let me ask, what trouble exactly you see your intermediate students bringing in, that you are referring to here?

2 and 3 in your drawing are no tailing loops to me.
3 the (as you call it) trailing loop looks more like a crossed loop to me. Just little different to 2. By the way a trailing/underslung/inverted loop is not done by gravity, but by low line speed in my point of view. Gravity remains equal on all loops.

Inverted Loops:
https://www.sexyloops.com/index.php/ps/ ... down-loops

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Bernd
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Morsie
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Re: 180 "tails".

#9

Post by Morsie »

I don't see the first as true tails from violating the 180 rule either Bernd, and I didn't say that anywhere, I thought I made that pretty clear. The focus is on the second, and I don't call that a tail either, but a closed loop - as i wrote there. Many do however call it a tail and that is the point of my post, just seeking to clarify what others think it might be, for me its a vertical tracking fault. The clip Aitor showed me on FB was very small, and was nothing like what an intermediate student breaking the 180 rule in the vertical plane would do, which is also what this is about - high backcast followed by a horizontal forward cast - which by the way agrees completely with Aitor's assertion that the position of the line in the air line on the backcast (tracking) has a lot to do with how the fc loop unrolls. Same thing different plane.
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Paul Arden
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Re: 180 "tails".

#10

Post by Paul Arden »

Interesting discussion. It really actually depends on definitions unfortunately. When I’m working on forward trajectory in comp distance I raise my front target higher until “the loop tails”. And then lower my target again for my subsequent casts. Depending on definition of tail it may or may not be one. But as a transverse wave that dips down and intersects the rod leg in two places I’m sure it can often fit. It could also be (or more accurately instead be) a “dangling end”.

It really depends on if your definition of tail is based around what you see, or how it is created. I’ve personally been in both camps over the years. I don’t think it makes a lot of difference.
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