Interesting John! I certainly agree with accuracy and it’s also very important with Snakehead shots to put the backcast high. Not necessarily to avoid waves/collisions etc but because if the backcast is low then the loop opens and you get slack. Being able to throw a high backcast that straightens above the horizontal I think an important skill.
However for the long carry 5WT I also use the 180 rule with compensation for gravity. Into the wind I try to put my backcast high. With a tailing wind, which is what we normally get given in competition, I put my backcast low, usually straightening just above the grass. This is because under such situations I aim the forward delivery 15 degrees above the horizontal.
Cheers, Paul
PLEASE NOTE: In order to post on the Board you need to have registered. To register please email paul@sexyloops.com including your real name and username. Registration takes less than 24hrs, unless Paul is fishing deep in the jungle!
180 "tails".
Moderators: Paul Arden, stesiik
-
Paul Arden
- Site Admin
- Posts: 19643
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
- Location: Belum Rainforest
- Contact:
-
John Waters
- Posts: 2167
- Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:16 pm
Re: 180 "tails".
Hi Paul,
I use a different hand path for the 5 weight Trout Distance, compared to my technique for the 27 gram Sea Trout, 38 gram Single Handed Distance, 55 gram and 120 gram two handed distance events. The length of carry needed for long casts in the Trout Distance requires a 180-like separation and in some conditions, a greater than 180 degree separation of loops. For all other events I use a hand path that traces a triangle.
I only mentioned my long line casting to illustrate the excellent videos and analysis that Aitor has published that clearly shows the shape under discussion is not a result of the angle upon which the backcast is generated. It is the same as the presumption that there must be a pause between the forward cast and the backcast and vice versa. A guideline, not an essential. I rarely let my forward cast straighten for the ICSF fly accuracy event, but in most conditions, I want the forward cast to straighten fully and pause whilst the extended line and leader drops under gravity in the 5 weight Trout Accuracy.
In my opinion, an "essential" in anything needs to transcend all applications. I always learn something from Aitor's casting analysis, I have shared many emails with him but was privileged to meet him when I attended a two handed casting presentation he conducted a few years back. An impressive individual and certainly a great casting coach.
We are under Covid movement restrictions here in Melbourne, so no casting for me for two weeks, but when I'm allowed out again, Trout Distance will be back on the schedule and carry length will be a focus.
John
I use a different hand path for the 5 weight Trout Distance, compared to my technique for the 27 gram Sea Trout, 38 gram Single Handed Distance, 55 gram and 120 gram two handed distance events. The length of carry needed for long casts in the Trout Distance requires a 180-like separation and in some conditions, a greater than 180 degree separation of loops. For all other events I use a hand path that traces a triangle.
I only mentioned my long line casting to illustrate the excellent videos and analysis that Aitor has published that clearly shows the shape under discussion is not a result of the angle upon which the backcast is generated. It is the same as the presumption that there must be a pause between the forward cast and the backcast and vice versa. A guideline, not an essential. I rarely let my forward cast straighten for the ICSF fly accuracy event, but in most conditions, I want the forward cast to straighten fully and pause whilst the extended line and leader drops under gravity in the 5 weight Trout Accuracy.
In my opinion, an "essential" in anything needs to transcend all applications. I always learn something from Aitor's casting analysis, I have shared many emails with him but was privileged to meet him when I attended a two handed casting presentation he conducted a few years back. An impressive individual and certainly a great casting coach.
We are under Covid movement restrictions here in Melbourne, so no casting for me for two weeks, but when I'm allowed out again, Trout Distance will be back on the schedule and carry length will be a focus.
John
-
Paul Arden
- Site Admin
- Posts: 19643
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
- Location: Belum Rainforest
- Contact:
Re: 180 "tails".
Hi John,
I’m not quite sure which shape is under discussion but I do know that if your tip path is in a different direction to the flyline then you initially put a bend in the line. That bend makes the line “wavy” and runs down the fly leg towards the fly – or can become a “waypoint”. Sometimes it’s a problem. Sometimes it’s not. Sometimes we make use of it for presentation casts. We can also make use of it as a “waypoint” as Dirk pointed out in a very interesting discussion a little while back. It’s certainly a very fine line between a wavy tail and a wavy closed loop. Particularly when you spin the question around and ask is it possible to get a wavy closed loop as a result of inappropriate power application?
Aitor is a great chap. No doubt about that from me. I always have a lot of fun when we meet. We seem to both enjoy drinking beer together
I’ve learned a lot from Aitor.
Cheers, Paul
I’m not quite sure which shape is under discussion but I do know that if your tip path is in a different direction to the flyline then you initially put a bend in the line. That bend makes the line “wavy” and runs down the fly leg towards the fly – or can become a “waypoint”. Sometimes it’s a problem. Sometimes it’s not. Sometimes we make use of it for presentation casts. We can also make use of it as a “waypoint” as Dirk pointed out in a very interesting discussion a little while back. It’s certainly a very fine line between a wavy tail and a wavy closed loop. Particularly when you spin the question around and ask is it possible to get a wavy closed loop as a result of inappropriate power application?
Aitor is a great chap. No doubt about that from me. I always have a lot of fun when we meet. We seem to both enjoy drinking beer together
I’ve learned a lot from Aitor. Cheers, Paul
-
Dirk le Roux
- Posts: 556
- Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:09 pm
- Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Re: 180 "tails".
To me, 180 is a nice to have rather than a must have. Such as "a forward/back cast goes more efficiently when the line is pre set straight and directly opposite to its cast direction". Without necessity for the bend/waypoint as Paul mentioned. But then, so are the 5 essentials, generalised desirables which can be and often need to be deviated from. Smooth power application may be the most must have among those though.
BTW, I have experimented, filming it lest I be deluded, to achieve in the loop plane that ideal (and I don't mean perfectly) straight and opposite set-up at the start of the next stroke on a regular long-ish cast. It is not easy. To achieve it both ways during false casting is near impossible to me. Classic overhead casts are figures of eight rather than the mirrored candy canes we see only on drawings. And it's not only due to gravity or compensating for it.
BTW 2, have anyone noticed how the loops on Morsie's forward casts "climb" towards the end?
All the best,
Dirk
BTW, I have experimented, filming it lest I be deluded, to achieve in the loop plane that ideal (and I don't mean perfectly) straight and opposite set-up at the start of the next stroke on a regular long-ish cast. It is not easy. To achieve it both ways during false casting is near impossible to me. Classic overhead casts are figures of eight rather than the mirrored candy canes we see only on drawings. And it's not only due to gravity or compensating for it.
BTW 2, have anyone noticed how the loops on Morsie's forward casts "climb" towards the end?
All the best,
Dirk
Re: 180 "tails".
Dirk, I do a lot of teaching and have the approach that first we learn the essentials, then we learn how to break them to achieve a desired, controlled layout. In Spey of course its pretty much an absolute essential, we talk about it all the time - so why not elsewhere?
I also noticed how the entire line kicks "up" but can offer no explanation. I did not notice it at the time but it really shows up in this clip. From my perspective I was throwing straight down that black line and was focused on attaining the smoothest acceleration i could. I didn't think I was over powering, but perhaps I was for the short length of line.
I also noticed how the entire line kicks "up" but can offer no explanation. I did not notice it at the time but it really shows up in this clip. From my perspective I was throwing straight down that black line and was focused on attaining the smoothest acceleration i could. I didn't think I was over powering, but perhaps I was for the short length of line.
John, So with an 80 ft carry you start to come forward immediately after loop formation - and vice versa?..........It is the same as the presumption that there must be a pause between the forward cast and the backcast and vice versa.
Make your explanations as simple as possible, but no simpler. A Einstein.
-
John Waters
- Posts: 2167
- Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:16 pm
Re: 180 "tails".
Hi Dirk,
Agree with you on the smooth power application. Absolutely correct.
Hi Peter,
In my opinion, casting and the body movement that creates it, is always objective driven. My comment about the non essentiality of the pause was in reference to ICSF Accuracy. For that event the caster has to generate effective and efficient loops that deliver the hackled fly (size 10 hook with bend removed) to the target based in the shortest possible time. In the preliminary rounds accuracy is the primary focus, speed secondary. Still usually need a perfect score to get a final berth but the overall time to complete the event can be up to 2 minutes. However, in a final, the objective changes. A perfect score is required in a time range between 55 seconds and 70 sometimes 80 seconds, depending on wind strength and wind direction. That's an average of 3 seconds per delivery cast (which includes false casts in the dry fly segment, lengthening and shortening line between each target), 20 delivery casts, one cast per target at 5 different distances. If conditions are difficult an extra false cast or two may be used. With dual objectives, technique changes. Currently, accuracy is the objective in the Trout Accuracy event, so things like line extension between false casts the technique changes. However I predict that in the future, there will be multiple perfect scores in that event too, and time will be a focus for medal winners. That will be great to see because casters will want to judge hoop distance and delivery accurately with as few false casts as possible. That will be a few footy seasons off, but it will happen as perfect scores become more common. The ICSF Fly Accuracy has both a dry fly and wet fly component with fixed hoops, the Trout Accuracy has only a Dry Fly component but variable hoops. Both require a different technique and loop focus because of those different objectives.
As to the 80 ft plus carry, I always want my backcast loop to straighten, or be as close as possible to straight, and do the same with my forward cast. That is not the case with fixed length distance casting when again, I want my backcast to straighten but often, do not allow that to happen on the forward cast. In that case I come backwards when a fly leg is still present in the loop. The length of that fly leg varies but when I choose not to allow the front loop to straighten, I control that length by both the tempo and the length of my hand drop as part of the triangular hand path I use for fixed line length distance casting. The density of the line used is also a factor to consider in the shape of my forward cast as is the surface over which I am casting. Heavy, dense lines vs lighter, less dense lines, water vs grass, all mean changes in the front loop profile prior to the start of the next backcast. The forward cast has that deliberate variability with line straightening, not the back cast, although some situations will inevitably result in non-straightened backcasts. You need more consistency on the backcast than on the forward cast because the acceleration built up on the back cast is critical to the front cast, particularly the delivery. As you know the force applied and the distance over which that force is generated is the driver to good loops and I always want tight, fast loops at the back. Not essential on the front false casts, other factors are more important for me in the front. I don't go backwards immediately after loop formation on the forward cast, that would result in a non loop in front, irrespective of the carry length. Of course, I want a rod leg component in front, but on short targets the fly leg can be 50% of the line length, excluding leader, and on the longer targets that may reduce to maybe 20/25% of fly line length not extended in front false casts.
A bit verbose and maybe of no interest, but to me the above are essential to championship outcome, because there, you do not get another cast to make up for the one that was not optimal.
John
Agree with you on the smooth power application. Absolutely correct.
Hi Peter,
In my opinion, casting and the body movement that creates it, is always objective driven. My comment about the non essentiality of the pause was in reference to ICSF Accuracy. For that event the caster has to generate effective and efficient loops that deliver the hackled fly (size 10 hook with bend removed) to the target based in the shortest possible time. In the preliminary rounds accuracy is the primary focus, speed secondary. Still usually need a perfect score to get a final berth but the overall time to complete the event can be up to 2 minutes. However, in a final, the objective changes. A perfect score is required in a time range between 55 seconds and 70 sometimes 80 seconds, depending on wind strength and wind direction. That's an average of 3 seconds per delivery cast (which includes false casts in the dry fly segment, lengthening and shortening line between each target), 20 delivery casts, one cast per target at 5 different distances. If conditions are difficult an extra false cast or two may be used. With dual objectives, technique changes. Currently, accuracy is the objective in the Trout Accuracy event, so things like line extension between false casts the technique changes. However I predict that in the future, there will be multiple perfect scores in that event too, and time will be a focus for medal winners. That will be great to see because casters will want to judge hoop distance and delivery accurately with as few false casts as possible. That will be a few footy seasons off, but it will happen as perfect scores become more common. The ICSF Fly Accuracy has both a dry fly and wet fly component with fixed hoops, the Trout Accuracy has only a Dry Fly component but variable hoops. Both require a different technique and loop focus because of those different objectives.
As to the 80 ft plus carry, I always want my backcast loop to straighten, or be as close as possible to straight, and do the same with my forward cast. That is not the case with fixed length distance casting when again, I want my backcast to straighten but often, do not allow that to happen on the forward cast. In that case I come backwards when a fly leg is still present in the loop. The length of that fly leg varies but when I choose not to allow the front loop to straighten, I control that length by both the tempo and the length of my hand drop as part of the triangular hand path I use for fixed line length distance casting. The density of the line used is also a factor to consider in the shape of my forward cast as is the surface over which I am casting. Heavy, dense lines vs lighter, less dense lines, water vs grass, all mean changes in the front loop profile prior to the start of the next backcast. The forward cast has that deliberate variability with line straightening, not the back cast, although some situations will inevitably result in non-straightened backcasts. You need more consistency on the backcast than on the forward cast because the acceleration built up on the back cast is critical to the front cast, particularly the delivery. As you know the force applied and the distance over which that force is generated is the driver to good loops and I always want tight, fast loops at the back. Not essential on the front false casts, other factors are more important for me in the front. I don't go backwards immediately after loop formation on the forward cast, that would result in a non loop in front, irrespective of the carry length. Of course, I want a rod leg component in front, but on short targets the fly leg can be 50% of the line length, excluding leader, and on the longer targets that may reduce to maybe 20/25% of fly line length not extended in front false casts.
A bit verbose and maybe of no interest, but to me the above are essential to championship outcome, because there, you do not get another cast to make up for the one that was not optimal.
John
Re: 180 "tails".
Morsie, you're forgetting that you had a strong wind blowing from bottom of screen. The line moves to top of screen because the wind is blowing it that way as the cast settles to the ground.Morsie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:35 am
I also noticed how the entire line kicks "up" but can offer no explanation. I did not notice it at the time but it really shows up in this clip. From my perspective I was throwing straight down that black line and was focused on attaining the smoothest acceleration i could. I didn't think I was over powering, but perhaps I was for the short length of line.
The "kick up at the end of the cast" mentioned by Dirk is simply reflecting the direction of the rod tip path. Dirk's tracks show it very clearly. When we are casting normally, that path is aimed higher than we think because we are unconsciously compensating for gravity. That is, we think we're aiming the line horizontally, but we aim up a little without knowing it.
Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI
-
Dirk le Roux
- Posts: 556
- Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:09 pm
- Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Re: 180 "tails".
Hi Peter
I am not an instructor, so these views may be way presumptuous - I just wonder if there may be any better way than to cement in a set of foundation parameters which are subject to revision on further development, or when confronted with different approaches. "Short cast, narrow arc" as example: then you come across TLT's short line out with very wide arc and the loops are zippy and tiny!
"Essentials" can lead to limiting dictums like "<180 Will cause tails", "Belgian casts make the overhead delivery loop kick over to the side", "God won't let you cast with slack", etcetera. One may start believing those. They may create a framework which defines limits to what one views as possible or even good form. Later, it takes significant effort and re-adjustments to venture outside that mould. Some may never break out.
The explanation for those forward casts "kicking up" is something I have started noticing when analysing Graeme's overhead cast, and which the later investigated square snaps illustrate well: The tail wags the dog. That is, the angle of the hindmost incoming line portion dominates spatial motion of the line configuration up ahead. Almost like a rudder.
All the best,
Dirk
I am not an instructor, so these views may be way presumptuous - I just wonder if there may be any better way than to cement in a set of foundation parameters which are subject to revision on further development, or when confronted with different approaches. "Short cast, narrow arc" as example: then you come across TLT's short line out with very wide arc and the loops are zippy and tiny!
"Essentials" can lead to limiting dictums like "<180 Will cause tails", "Belgian casts make the overhead delivery loop kick over to the side", "God won't let you cast with slack", etcetera. One may start believing those. They may create a framework which defines limits to what one views as possible or even good form. Later, it takes significant effort and re-adjustments to venture outside that mould. Some may never break out.
The explanation for those forward casts "kicking up" is something I have started noticing when analysing Graeme's overhead cast, and which the later investigated square snaps illustrate well: The tail wags the dog. That is, the angle of the hindmost incoming line portion dominates spatial motion of the line configuration up ahead. Almost like a rudder.
All the best,
Dirk
-
Paul Arden
- Site Admin
- Posts: 19643
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
- Location: Belum Rainforest
- Contact:
Re: 180 "tails".
I think it would be quite difficult to find absolutes in casting, at least not many that are useful when teaching. I suppose if you went deeper into the physics then it might be possible. But I think flycasting is more art than engineering. The “5 Essentials” (capital E) don’t actually have the “180 rule” [directly] in there. In fact they are pretty open-ended and can be interpreted in different ways. I was an instructor for about 10 years before I first came across them – they only started to appear here on Sexyloops in around 2003 (so seven years). I think they are useful for a basic understanding and they give a few lightbulb moments. I do think they are incredibly smart. The unfortunate thing is that people occasionally take them literally (SLP is case in point).
I just see these things as filters, teaching frameworks, useful for teaching students of specific levels. A bit like the simplified matchstick men diagrams you see in school. I actually much prefer the definitions model we have (Drift/Sweep/Casting Stroke). But equally I wouldn’t get too attached to that either. They are all just tools. Once the nail is in the wall you can put the hammer away. Then it might be time to get the screwdriver out.
One doesn’t teach a beginner in the same way or even the same techniques as one teaches an intermediate, advanced or expert casters. The Stop is a very good example of something I teach beginners and then unteach advanced casters. While I have tried teaching the stopless hauled 170 stroke to complete beginners it has never been successful
Cheers, Paul
I just see these things as filters, teaching frameworks, useful for teaching students of specific levels. A bit like the simplified matchstick men diagrams you see in school. I actually much prefer the definitions model we have (Drift/Sweep/Casting Stroke). But equally I wouldn’t get too attached to that either. They are all just tools. Once the nail is in the wall you can put the hammer away. Then it might be time to get the screwdriver out.
One doesn’t teach a beginner in the same way or even the same techniques as one teaches an intermediate, advanced or expert casters. The Stop is a very good example of something I teach beginners and then unteach advanced casters. While I have tried teaching the stopless hauled 170 stroke to complete beginners it has never been successful
Cheers, Paul
-
John Waters
- Posts: 2167
- Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:16 pm
Re: 180 "tails".
Hi Dirk,
The essentiality of the 5 essentials have always been an issue for me. Any reader of the Australian Fly life Forum will remember a lot of "discussion" 17 years ago about. Absolutely agree with you, as I have experienced the same issue you raise, when instructing casters in Australia, CCIs included.
Terminology is so important because it drives impressions, preconceptions, and as you have said, can lead to "limiting dictums".
Excellent post,
John
The essentiality of the 5 essentials have always been an issue for me. Any reader of the Australian Fly life Forum will remember a lot of "discussion" 17 years ago about. Absolutely agree with you, as I have experienced the same issue you raise, when instructing casters in Australia, CCIs included.
Terminology is so important because it drives impressions, preconceptions, and as you have said, can lead to "limiting dictums".
Excellent post,
John