PLEASE NOTE: In order to post on the Board you need to have registered. To register please email paul@sexyloops.com including your real name and username. Registration takes less than 24hrs, unless Paul is fishing deep in the jungle!

180 "tails".

Moderators: Paul Arden, stesiik

User avatar
Bernd Ziesche
Posts: 3436
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:01 pm
Answers: 0
Location: Whereever the fish are!
Contact:

Re: 180 "tails".

#111

Post by Bernd Ziesche »

Paul Arden wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:50 pm I don’t think Paul defined a tailing loop as one or two intersections...
I didn't mean, that you did that. I knew you didn't... :)
What I meant is, that few of us have moved on. Those few (I am one of them) have no more need (or want to spend much time) in running into the same old trap again and again.

Everyone who has been into teaching a lot, not just 50 first students, will know, that there are many different shapes of tailing loops entering the lessons. Yet they are all caused by pretty few different causes, easy to be identified once you have learnt them all. Studying videos does help a lot here.
Violating the 180 concept is not among these causes.

Violating the 180 concept on purpose, but not matching to keep acceleration smooth enough (and causing a too sudden increase in rod bend) of course easily leads into a tailing loop. But it was failing in the art of acceleration only to cause the tailing loop...

Oh, and I believe the reason I don't see a tailing loop in Aitors video is because there was none! Thus you are wrong, if you claim violating 180 causes tailing loops.
Now let's assume you could prove that adding a) not having a well unrolled (of course not STRAIGHT) line at the start of the fc* and b) violating the 180 concept such extremely like Aitor did would cause a tailing loop, it still would not be violating the 180 concept causing the tailing.
*You may for example start from a half way unrolled line of course...
Cheers
B
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.
George C
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:30 am
Answers: 0

Re: 180 "tails".

#112

Post by George C »

I think the reason you don't see a dangle in Aitor's video is that the momentum of the falling line is directed 90 degrees to the fly leg. It creates a momentary dangle that is quickly pulled out by tension. For the dangle to persist there has to be a component of forward momentum parallel to the fly leg such that tension falls to insignificant levels for a period of time.
George C
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:30 am
Answers: 0

Re: 180 "tails".

#113

Post by George C »

Hi Benrd

When you studied videos of dangles does the section of line contained in the dangle overtake the rest of the fly leg forming a hinge point that then lengthens as line feeds past it or does the line roll into a straight path with the fly leg then continue swinging (or kick) past it like an over-powered turnover at the end of a cast?
Torsten
Posts: 456
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:34 pm
Answers: 0

Re: 180 "tails".

#114

Post by Torsten »

Hi Bernd,

I think to draw conclusions from that model is too early, I need to implement more details such as aerodynamics, line stiffness etc. I've found it just interesting, that I got a self-intersecting shape with a high line setup. It's true that any model needs to be verified by practical experiments.

I've checked Aitors video and I see a significant timing difference compared to some of Lasse's casts: Lasse waits until the (high) backcast is fully unrolled, while Aitor begins his forward stroke while the line is still unrolling. A unrolling loop front provides tension (Gordy has often quoted a famous equation here :) ), it seems to me that it helps to reduce the download acceleration of the line.

I think Aitors video demonstrates that we don't get always a self-intersecting loop (which is plausible, else nobody would ever use a steeple cast).
But I know from my own experience, that I need much more careful not to get tangles with the steeple cast.

Something that I could imagine is to cast with a very stiff rod or broomstick to eliminate tip oscillations, maybe Lasse or Paul could record some footage of that.

Thanks,
Torsten
Bernd Ziesche wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:08 am
Torsten wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:52 pm I've rotated the straight acceleration segment slightly upward.
Hi Torsten,
According to your modelling you believe, that violating the 180 concept just a bit (not much compared to the video proof Aitor delivered) and by smooth accel., results in
A) the fly line just outside the tip hardly following launch direction as set by accel. tip path,
B) a huge wavy shape coming into the fly line and
A) and B) happening while having created enough line speed for the whole line to fully unroll (quite powerful).

Can you demo (back up) that in the real world?
Regards
Bernd
User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 19528
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Answers: 2
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Re: 180 "tails".

#115

Post by Paul Arden »

I don’t think we get an intersection because at this point the line is straight.
AB645948-D3A8-4B25-A757-AFEACBB64465.jpeg
The reason it works is because the line carry is relatively short and the wave has reached the end of the line at loop formation.

I will try my broomstick if I can remember to bring it from the boat. I’m back on the boat tomorrow. I’m not sure I can video myself on the boat however. But on the 18th I’m back in town to help Ashly with an exam. There is a good place for me to film long carry, I think, and if I haven’t found a way to do so before then I will do so then.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions
Morsie
Posts: 583
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:14 am
Answers: 0

Re: 180 "tails".

#116

Post by Morsie »

Thanks Bernd, I was looking in the wrong place at the wrong time and was uncertain of what the demo was about. I meant this one.
Image
Attachments
Screen Shot 2021-04-14 at 09.31.51.png
Make your explanations as simple as possible, but no simpler. A Einstein.
User avatar
Bernd Ziesche
Posts: 3436
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:01 pm
Answers: 0
Location: Whereever the fish are!
Contact:

Re: 180 "tails".

#117

Post by Bernd Ziesche »

Hello George,
from what I studied in videos the dangles are highly variable in propagation and shape. Our line end easily can run into some "weird" ways far of the path we want them to stay on.
Since our lines are tapered each section of line has it's own unique relation between mass and surface (differently influencing friction and momentum). I yet have to study the differencies between level line, short and long tapers (all that in different densities) when it comes to the dangles.
What I can tell you is, that the line end easily can move backwards at some point within the forward cast and parts of the fluff then may even break sound barrer when being redirected by the main part of fly-leg (providing largest momentum of course) moving forward in the direction of the cast.
Clearly I can summarize, that on longer carries the time lag between the movement of our rod hand until this force reaches our line end increases. This often has a significant increasing effect on the dangle. Same holds true for many casters when comparing softer rods to pretty stiff ones. Softer rods bring in increased time lag rod hand to tip movement. Also the angle of dangle (how much redirecting happens by initial tip path compared to the unrolled line) has huge effect. More redirecting means larger dangle. Tip speed also has large effect. More speed often helps to pronounce the dangle.
On shorter carries there is usually less time lag between rod hand movement and line end starting to move. In addition it's easier to get the unrolled line a) closer to straight, b) proper aligned with the initial tip path and c) keep it smoothly accelerated. Also usually less line speed will be set. To my knowldge these are the factors why we see much less dangles on short carries compared to the long ones.
According to Aitor's fine video I personally would be careful to state that there was no dangle at all. One camera is just one position. We might have seen a small dangle from another point of view. But for sure there was no significant dangle (agree).

Torsten,
I tried to create a tailing loop with a broomstick (9 feet) in many ways. It did not happen for me. I am pretty sure to remember Lasse made the same experience when trying it either. I really like the visualizing your model provides, but are glad you agree on the practical experiments being needed to varify the model.

Paul,
in your SL video section you say, that half of the carry Aitor steeple casted was long already. So how can Aitor his carry have been short now? :D
95% of my students hardly ever will use such a long carry on a steeple cast. Let's stay realistic (representative), please!

Peter,
ah yes, that video was demonstrating a tailing and a dangle both in the same cast.

Regards
B
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.
User avatar
Bernd Ziesche
Posts: 3436
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:01 pm
Answers: 0
Location: Whereever the fish are!
Contact:

Re: 180 "tails".

#118

Post by Bernd Ziesche »

Paul Arden wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:45 pm The reason it works is because the line carry is relatively short and the wave has reached the end of the line at loop formation.
Mate,
that line was relatively short for a significant change of direction cast? Really? :D

The EFFA had a COD cast in their master exam. Not much line to be carried. A COD and a line shoot delivery was required then. Many MASTER candidates failed on that cast for proper reasons!
Aitor's carry was not short for such a COD cast!
Cheers
B
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.
User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 19528
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Answers: 2
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Re: 180 "tails".

#119

Post by Paul Arden »

Sorry for confusing you Bernd. I meant it was a relatively short carry. It’s around maximum for a steeple cast. It looks to be about 2.5 rod lengths of flyline out the tip. That’s why it’s possible. If it was 2 or 3 times that amount I think the result would be different? Anyway that’s what I’ll video and we can compare notes.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions
User avatar
Paul Arden
Site Admin
Posts: 19528
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:20 am
Answers: 2
Location: Belum Rainforest
Contact:

Re: 180 "tails".

#120

Post by Paul Arden »

Do you think breaking 180 with 75’ outside the tip will not result in a wave in the fly leg Bernd? You’ve said something like in the video above with 25’ outside the tip proves that breaking 180 doesn’t result in dangle/tail/wave. But what if instead of 25’ it was 75’? Still no dangle/tail/wave? I don’t think it’s been proven. Only under certain criteria it doesn’t happen. Or at least it completely passes through the line. I think that’s where we disagree?

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions
Post Reply

Return to “Flycasting”