Sloppy Rod

[Magnus]

Paul

Glad to hear you still recall my Greys 8ft 6in slow action #3 vs the 10/11 spey line. IMHO that suggested that outfit was sort of self-limiting, dealing with your casting input is ways which made it impossible for you to break that rod by casting. That rod was made using high strength and intermediate modulus cloth and as far as I recall was an unground blank. (still have it somewhere.)

"It’s quite possible that a rod ovalizes but I imagine that would be a very distinct and immediate feeling."
Really? This is about imagination and subjective impressions?
Talking to rod designers some years ago about hoop strength, and the relationship of taper (tube diameter) to casting characteristics, I brought up ovalization which was occasionally mentioned in marketing materials from one of the fly brands (basically saying other brands rod oval ours don't. meaningless bullshit!) The designers laughed, their reaction was if a rod seriously ovals under load then it breaks - one leads directly and inevitably to the other, the tube loses strength and the rod collapses at the point where it became oval - which is why they talk about hoop strength, scrim and all that. And they said they can identify the type of break that produces - what it looks like. Next questions were about causes - ovalization might be an issue in a rod (or a section) with irregular wall thickness - when they tried rods with wide butts and thinner walls (as a rod designer I'm sure you know why they wanted larger diameter butt sections) there was more chance of the wall buckling - again identifiable.

IMHO this is a classic SL thread, chasing rabbits down irrelevant holes.

" A tired, average caster ...

When we get fatigued, we lose form very easily. Get the timing of the application of power wrong in a cast and it feels like the rod loses power, when in fact it's us that gets sloppy."

Yes.

Or as the OP described, he was casting at his limits, trying to go beyond 70ft carry, which turned out to be some nebulous length he had not measured. IMHO the OP had more to do with casting than rods. Paul you sell rods so I have no doubt you think your OP's problem can be solved by a better rod, one of your rods? Really? You know better than that!

Examine his casting first.

Magnus

[Lasse Karlsson]

6 foot 6" that Tim wrote 3 on, medium action, and a outbound 12 weight (the first version with 36 feet head, and only a lineclass heavier ) couldnt break it either...



Agree with Magnum!

Cheers
Lasse

[gordonjudd]

And they said they can identify the type of break that produces - what it looks like.

Magnus,
Do you know what the difference in the nature of the area around the break looks like for a compression failure (what Tim calls a "good" break) and one caused by ovalization? That should put a lot of this discussion on ovalization to rest.
Gordy

[Paul Arden]

I don’t remember suggesting to buy another rod Magnus! I did ask about carry though. I would actually be very surprised if this was the problem - but I haven’t cast the rod in question.

The issue that I was discussing later on is actually quite a niche problem. It sometimes occurs when hitting a very long carry as hard as possible. I wouldn’t wish to give the idea that it was a common problem! If Walter was carrying a measured 90 then I would be suspecting the rod. It’s still possible of course but I would have to chuck it to see.

Cheers, Paul

[Magnus]

Gordy

As I recall they described a crush fracture, splits up two 'sides' then shards where the rod had splintered? The rod had flattened. This was a long time back at the Daiwa factory, the discussion was really about butt diameters, they were making a range of rod with slim butts and a range with wide diameter butts and about the same amount of material in both. (Paul can describe what effect that has on rod design )

Paul
I'd be surprised if someone learning to carry more than 70ft doesn't find weaknesses in their tracking, rod timing, haul timing - casting issues. Chances that it's a rod problem are small.

Magnus

[Paul Arden]

Incidentally Magnus, I think that the modulus of the 3WT you brought down is very important. I have since broken another 3WT trying to carry a long 5WT line (not 10WT!). It popped just above the handle. Fault of the rod?

Cheers, Paul

[Magnus]

Gordy

Found the video of Tim on rod breaks. He's so very good at explaining this stuff.

Yes, I think the designers I was talking to were describing that sort of distributed break. There was some issue about guides and how that distributes stress, I don't recall why or what. They were cautious, clearly not wanting me saying their rod break for reasons a b c. I've found Daiwa rods pretty tough as a matter of fact.
Those same guys design coarse fishing poles - do you get similar in the US? Very long rods (can be 15m or more) with elastic fixed inside the pole - no guides. The butt diameter is massive, they talked about those squashing, ovaling, and they had to deal with building in enough strength so those pole sections don't fail.

Magnus

[Magnus]

Incidentally Magnus, I think that the modulus of the 3WT you brought down is very important. I have since broken another 3WT trying to carry a long 5WT line (not 10WT!). It popped just above the handle. Fault of the rod?

Cheers, Paul

The materials - yes those can be important.
How well they were put together - lamination, voids and inclusions etc.
If the blank was ground - how accurately and consistently it was ground.
How well seated where the joints
How round were the joints
How well designed was the guide spacing (distribution of stress)
How smooth were the guide feet.
Damage, next to car doors, rods being chipped or bruised then later failing is probably the leading cause of breakages.


I'm sure this list is not complete but if you are claiming you can say exactly which of these was the cause, after one test, by casting alone...you are just wrong

Magnus

[Paul Arden]

Hi Magnus,

I’ve had a lot of rods break three or four inches above the handle with a long carry when switching to 170. Personally I don’t think it’s a faulty rod (or materials or build) but rather it’s down to the design. The question then is this a fault of the design or is it so far removed from the intended purpose that it’s outside the design scope?

Cheers, Paul

[Magnus]

Paul

"I think that the modulus of the 3WT you brought down is very important."

"Personally I don’t think it’s a faulty rod (or materials or build) but rather it’s down to the design."

You thinking of getting into politics?

Magnus