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Head at the rod tip increasing counterflex?

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nicholasfmoore
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Head at the rod tip increasing counterflex?

#1

Post by nicholasfmoore » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:42 am

Hi all,

I was wondering if the head at the rod tip contributes to making more counterflex than normal in relation to loop size?

I believe that the main reason for a wider loop is because the head is being pulled round the loop during counterflex. Additionally, the entire head is not aimed at the target. Certainly not the best way to cast them as we know.

When we use overhang, there is running line at the rod tip from rsp1 - cf - rsp2, and there is less mass at the rod tip compared to the head.

With overhang, we can get the head at the top of the loop and form the loop with running line, and this means the head isn’t being pulled round the loop during cf.

My question is, does mass hanging directly off the rod tip create more cf?

Or would you say the reason for the loop size is due to the head position in the loop during cf? I think the latter, I’m not sure about the former.

All the best!
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

Magnus
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Re: Head at the rod tip increasing counterflex?

#2

Post by Magnus » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:46 pm

Interesting question

Have you tried casting a shooting head with mono shooting line - head at the tip then with slight overhang.
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James9118
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Re: Head at the rod tip increasing counterflex?

#3

Post by James9118 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:09 pm

Nick - can you cast an uber tight loop with a DT line? :???:

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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Head at the rod tip increasing counterflex?

#4

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:29 pm







Something to look at 🙂

Cheers
Lasse
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Head at the rod tip increasing counterflex?

#5

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:30 pm

James9118 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:09 pm
Nick - can you cast an uber tight loop with a DT line? :???:
How tight is über tight, and where do you measure?
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger


It makes no difference at all whether you are in a fishing environment or on a casting court. Technique transcends all casting environments, irrespective of what, and where, those environments exist.

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James9118
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Re: Head at the rod tip increasing counterflex?

#6

Post by James9118 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:55 pm

Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:30 pm

How tight is über tight, and where do you measure?
It doesn't matter - I was just making the point (probably not that clearly) that I don't think Nick's hypothesis is correct.

Obviously I don't have measurements from your videos, but I don't see by eye the counterflex decreasing as you increase the overhang.

Cheers, James

nicholasfmoore
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Re: Head at the rod tip increasing counterflex?

#7

Post by nicholasfmoore » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:24 pm

Hi all,
Magnus wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:46 pm
Interesting question

Have you tried casting a shooting head with mono shooting line - head at the tip then with slight overhang.
Hi, Magnus. Yes I’ve used a homemade 65’ shooting head (old barrio gt125). I’ve also tried it with a rio shs. Ultra tight loop with overhang, haul length plus how much I draw away from the target 🙂
James9118 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:09 pm
Nick - can you cast an uber tight loop with a DT line? :???:
Hi, James. Tight loop yes, but I get a very noticeable difference when I cast a rio shs for example with overhang. Probably should have specified shooting head lines. 🙂 I get a big jump in loop tightness (to ultra tight) when I use overhang, like lasse. Would you say that’s mainly because the head isn’t being pulled round the loop during counterflex? Certainly, the cf looks the same in lasse’s videos with and without overhang, so more mass at the rod tip doesn’t seem to contribute to adding more. With the head at the top of loop, all aimed at the target, this does make more sense.

All the best!
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

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Paul Arden
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Re: Head at the rod tip increasing counterflex?

#8

Post by Paul Arden » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:14 am

Hi guys,

Let me come in from a different angle here. There is no question in my mind that a loop that is formed with the head morphs differently to a loop that is formed with running line (not just shooting line). You can clearly see this happening with you extend past 86-88’ carry with the MED5 for example. The loop takes on a completely different appearance as it unrolls.

So part one of Nick’s question I agree with completely.

Different C/F however… that difficult for me to say. With the head in the rings compared to running line - I think so. It’s like having a heavier rod tip. Heavier tips give more CF.

Head at the very tip of the rod… no I don’t think so. The tip is pulling the line. If anything I think this might result in marginally less CF (more air drag on the rod leg of the loop forming, but it must be small). Anyway I’m quite sure that the benefits of thinner lighter line in the initial loop shape outweigh any benefits that reducing CF might give.

CF for me is mostly a result of how much bend we put in the rod during the Casting Stroke. More force = more bend = more CF.

Something I have noticed is that heavier lines on a given rod can sometimes result in better damping (head in the tip). I won a TFO6 in a comp in Montana - can’t remember the model. With a 5 line the rod leg it had a big worm travelling through it. With a 6 line it as actually pretty straight (for a TFO).

Cheers, Paul
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Head at the rod tip increasing counterflex?

#9

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:38 pm

James9118 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:55 pm
Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:30 pm

How tight is über tight, and where do you measure?
It doesn't matter - I was just making the point (probably not that clearly) that I don't think Nick's hypothesis is correct.

Obviously I don't have measurements from your videos, but I don't see by eye the counterflex decreasing as you increase the overhang.

Cheers, James
Ah, ok, and eyeballing, I agree with you. Feel is a different thing, but we never get anywhere here when that comes up 🤣

Cheers
Lasse
Your friendly neighbourhood flyslinger


It makes no difference at all whether you are in a fishing environment or on a casting court. Technique transcends all casting environments, irrespective of what, and where, those environments exist.

John Waters

Morsie
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Re: Head at the rod tip increasing counterflex?

#10

Post by Morsie » Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:18 am

Lasse on a slightly different note you mentioned elsewhere that you mostly use heads for fishing - what heads do you use, length, taper, density etc?

Morsie

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