Casting Stroke

[Paul Arden]

I enjoyed that!

[John Waters]

Hi Gary,

Is the stepping employed when striving for maximum distance, part of the casting stroke?

If that body movement generates rod translation, but is not sufficient to cause loop formation, is it part of the casting stroke?

John

[Paul Arden]

Some art!

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As you can see one issue you can end up with is the bizarre situation where a distance cast from full arm stretch to full arm stretch with two steps can have a shorter “stroke length” than an accuracy cast where sufficiency threshold is reached earlier (particularly with a shorter line carry).

But the bigger question is, since the IFF set is a set of quantitative definitions, how do you know when this sufficiency threshold is reached? It’s all very well to say we know it happened because there was a loop, but when did Creep and Drag stop and the Casting Stroke begin?

The even bigger problem is we all (accomplished casters) begin our stroke slowly, overcoming inertia, getting the line moving. We do this with every cast. However according to IFF set this early movement is not actually part of the CS but is instead Creep or Drag, ie passive movements insufficient to cause a Loop to form. So every single cast begins with Creep. That’s a very unusual use of the term Creep and not how we commonly teach it.

I may not be very good at explaining this, but I’m happy to keep trying. I’m off down the lake. Maybe I can think about making a short caveman video presentation down there!

Cheers, Paul

Edit: sorry new phone. I’m not sure why it posted the images sideways!

[Paul Arden]

How’s this for a question. Is it possible to Creep using translation? If for example the caster is a trained distance caster and is going to start with Drag (SL def.) then yes it is. But only according to SL Defs.

With IFF set, this translational “Creep” element is actually called “Drag”. And in this case it’s a fault of course.

Drag is one of those terms we teach advanced students to modify their Casting Stroke to both lengthen it and delay rotation. However with the IFF set I see no use for that term. I can’t actually see why you would split “insufficient to form loop” rod movements into translation and rotation and define them separately.

IFF has Drag defined outside the Casting Stroke (during the pause!). SL has it inside the Casting Stroke. That’s totally different. Why on Earth would you Drag during the pause?!

Cheers, Paul

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Hi Gary,

Is the stepping employed when striving for maximum distance, part of the casting stroke?

If that body movement generates rod translation, but is not sufficient to cause loop formation, is it part of the casting stroke?

John

John,

Why are you asking me? You are the "ex-spurt"!

(Sorry... you would have to have known Lefty to get that joke)

But, the real issue here is that you have completely misunderstood my point.

I am not putting one set of definitions above the other. I think they are both pretty good. In there own way... depending on what you are trying to achieve.

I have, and will continue to use both depending on who I am trying to help.

I will leave the arguing up to those with more investment.

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Paul,

Without a doubt, I think the main weakness (in both sets) lies somewhere in the vicinity of "Drag".

I think there is a yet undefined part of the cast, actually in my mind the most important part, that is neither in the pause, nor simply for initiation. It incorporates both some rotation and quite a bit of translation.

And, I wish those two terms were given more importance also.

But that is just my personal, likely delusional, conceptualization of the cast. And I am in no way going to try to explain or defend it.

"Better to be thought a fool than to remove all doubt"

[George C]

I think there is a yet undefined part of the cast, actually in my mind the most important part, that is neither in the pause, nor simply for initiation. It incorporates both some rotation and quite a bit of translation.

Hi Gary

The quote above rings true to me (although I think, as you may have pointed out in a previous thread, it can incorporate some preliminary haul as well).

It helps me to think of there being two phases of the casting stroke; a loading phase and a power phase. Pull it tight, then hit it.

I cringe to use the word "loading" because of its association with bending the rod. Instead, I think of loading the line. By this I mean removing slack and starting to to generate momentum, directed towards the target, throughout as much of the line as possible. Only then is any needed additional power applied.

I'd suggest that perhaps teaching beginners the importance of getting the line straight and under tension before attempting to launch it towards a target should be emphasized. I wish I had appreciated this concept much earlier.

G

[John Waters]

Hi Gary,

Is the stepping employed when striving for maximum distance, part of the casting stroke?

If that body movement generates rod translation, but is not sufficient to cause loop formation, is it part of the casting stroke?

John

John,

Why are you asking me? You are the "ex-spurt"!

(Sorry... you would have to have known Lefty to get that joke)

But, the real issue here is that you have completely misunderstood my point.

I am not putting one set of definitions above the other. I think they are both pretty good. In there own way... depending on what you are trying to achieve.

I have, and will continue to use both depending on who I am trying to help.

I will leave the arguing up to those with more investment.

Whoo, just asking a question Gary.

I'm certainly not an "ex-spurt", expert or any other "pert". I'm not a CCI, I would not pass at the moment for a number of reasons, one of which is my knowledge of casting definitions, so, I thought I could learn a bit more about casting by asking for clarification around what I presumed to be reasonable questions. I made no assumption about the point you are referring to, I only asked a question. because I wanted to better understand what I see some casters doing and trying to fit what I see, to what I have read here about some definitions. I have no issue with any definitions, whether they are tiered, prioritised or not. What I wanted to achieve by asking my questions is to improve my knowledge and understanding, as I am sure any student of yours would do.

As to why I posed the question to your good self? I thought you may be the best person to help with my understanding after reading your post #10 in which you referred to some work you had done on different definitions.

You may be correct, that both definitions are pretty good, I just wanted to some advice as to which, if any, accommodated the relatively new development of some casters using extensive stepping before they activate either rotation or translation.

Definitions will be very important, so are any questions regarding them,

John

[Paul Arden]

I agree. Look at the Belgian Cast for example. There is a huge amount of rod repositioning between Casting Strokes. SL calls this Drift (all of it, as in “Drift around”). If you are turning the line as in a Spey Cast then call it Sweep. I certainly don’t attach lack of importance to these elements; they are the three Key Elements! if there is a fourth (impossible on Sexyloops) then I want to know

Let’s ignore the comparisons between sets for now and just deal with SL Definitions - which is far better to discuss I think anyway.

So to answer your question Gary, I would also say this: you might have a package going on in your Casting Stroke. For me I mostly get the line moving before I hit it. That for me is all part of the “Casting Stroke” containment. Drag for example is part of the CS and we use it to modify the CS, delay rotation and whatnot. Slide - which is similar in some ways is outside the CS, because in this case the line is being slipped.

Can you discuss what it is that you are doing or trying to teach? I would love to have a discussion about using the SL set and any difficulties you have. Because that’s where it either works or fails.

For me, for the last 10 or 12 years or whatever it is, having the three terms: Drift, Sweep, Casting Stroke to look at any and all rod movements at the core has worked for me. So you might say what is a Mend? So I would say it’s a form of Sweep. What is the Lift? Sweep. What is Slide? Drift. What is the Circle on a Snake Roll? Sweep. What is the Snap on a Snap Cast? Casting Stroke.

It’s simple but it seems to work. We can specify direction and get involved in the nitty gritty for each part after we have contained it.

Cheers, Paul

[Tommy]

I am currently practicing / studying for the CCI exam working with an MCI mentor in Michigan. While we were talking over email I decided to look up the FFI definitions of creep before one of my responses and I was surprise by the definition which excludes translation for instance. I mentioned this in my response. What my mentor wrote back is more inline with the sexy loops definition. I think even though there is an explicit definition that only defines creep as rotation before the start of the forward stroke there is an implicit understanding most casting instructors have that includes intent and translation.

Below is what my mentor wrote. It may be less precise than the SexyLoops or FFI definition but it is more inline with the spirit of the SexyLoops definition.

"Creeping is unintentional forward movement of the hand prior to the forward stroke. The student doesn’t realize that they are doing it but they subconsciously move their hand forward before they apply the power on the forward cast. As a result of this unintended movement, it shortens their stroke length"


The MCI on this board could chime in but I don't think they would fault someone for demonstrating creep with translation instead of rotation (or more likely some combination of the two). I think in reality it is easy to tell visually if someone is intentionally beginning their stroke with drag or unintentionally beginning (or not beginning) with creep. It may be harder to define in words.


Below videos all have some amount of translation in the demonstration. None of the instructors say its a demonstration of both creep and drag.