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Stopless.

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Paul Arden
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Re: Stopless.

#21

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Jarmo,

Carry, on Sexyloops anyway, is the amount of flyline excluding leader to the line hand while false casting. So if for example you are false casting a 90’ DT by holding the backing knot in your line hand (extreme example I know, but it clarifies the measurement :p ) then you would be carrying 90’ of line. The leader is ignored.

I know James measures it the same way because we had a chat about it after his shoot measurements FP.

Happy New Year back to you! :cool:

Cheers,
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Re: Stopless.

#22

Post by Paul Arden »

There is an interesting history behind that by the way. Because about 20 years ago carry was being discussed on the Board using different methods. Some were measuring the amount of flyline outside the tip. Others were including leader. The problem is that when hauling this is constantly changing and leaders can be quite a variable as well! What I think most distance casters, myself included, like about measuring to line hand (and excluding leader) is that it is a) a consistent measurement and b) easily checked because if you know the length of the line then it’s quick and easy to strip measure from your line hand to the backing knot to check your carry. You don’t even need a tape measure.

Cheers, Paul
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jarmo
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Re: Stopless.

#23

Post by jarmo »

Paul Arden wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:06 pm Carry, on Sexyloops anyway, is the amount of flyline excluding leader to the line hand while false casting.
Thanks. I have a strange feeling of deja vu, so I think I should add this to my personal FAQ.

I have watched that video of Tracy's cast
now a number of times. Her technique is close to my heart, because I favour a closed stance. What interests me in that video, in addition to the obvious 119', include the following:
  • Asymmetry in delayed rotation on the forward and backward cast: to me it seems that in that video, rotation is delayed a lot more on the forward cast. With this technique, it is easier to delay rotation (using the wrist) on the forward cast. It would be very interesting to see the symmetry of the loops on the forward and backward casts; perhaps James can describe them for me.

    With an open stance, delaying rotation on the backcast is easier for me by "leading with the elbow."

    (This property of the closed stance has bothered me a lot, especially after I injured my wrist. Before my injury, I was able to delay rotation on the backcast as well, employing what I called a "negative wrist rotation", and this gave me very tight loops on the backcast. )
  • Asymmetry of direction of haul: on the forward cast, the hauling hand ends up behind the caster, in the direction of the continuation of the rod , basically as far away from the rod hand as possible, while on the backcast it is not so. On the backcast, the hauling hand ends up directly below the shoulder of the hauling hand, sometimes behind the reel on the forward-backward axis.

    I have fought with this, trying, on the backcast, to haul as far forward as possible, but it feels awkward. This video suggests that the direction of the haul is not that critical.
  • Tracy is not looking at her backcast straightening. I like that, since I hate trying to look at the backcast in this stance.
  • No body rotation. I dislike body rotation, since it messes up tracking.
Overall, a great motivational video, so thanks again.
barrysthlm
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Re: Stopless.

#24

Post by barrysthlm »

Hi all!

Unfortunately I may have been a bit too eager before Christmas and am now seeing a physio about an achy shoulder, so I haven’t been able to practice as much. :(

I was out last night and threw my first MED casts over 110 with no wind. I’ve massively improved tracking, timing, and hauling as advised and am getting a lot more comfortable carrying line on the backcast. Using targets is helping a lot. Lifting my elbow into the backcast avoiding the cast being directed at the ground helps, and it might have been this bad habit that has niggled my shoulder.
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Re: Stopless.

#25

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Barry,

You’re moving into some pretty strong territory now! I usually aim the backcast slightly low to straighten just above the ground, this in turn allows for a higher forward trajectory. If it’s very windy I start with a Side-arm back cast on the pick up and aim to keep this very low. My intention is to have the forward cast aimed up at about 15 degrees and so the backcast must be angled down. (Throwing into a head wind is different, but in comps is it’s usually no wind or tail wind).

Whereabouts does your shoulder hurt? On the backcast I lead with my elbow towards the target. The hand and arm always finish by pointing at the targets.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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barrysthlm
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Re: Stopless.

#26

Post by barrysthlm »

Hi Paul,

I had previously been angling down on the final backcast but I was hitting the ground too often so I pulled it back up. This helped me realize that the backcast was actually falling at a certain length of carry, so I worked on really basic stuff like the arc and finally got some more power into it. When my running line goes out it’s now getting that “zing” that Instagram casters get :). A big help has been focusing on throwing really pretty 50ft false casts with pointy loops and then opening up.

I’ve been watching your videos (particularly the fishing distance one) to see where you put your arm and shoulder, and I think I’ve been exaggerating the length of stroke and overextending pretty violently. My shoulder hurts on the outside, right at the top of my arm.

I haven’t thought about it, but I think I’m leading with my wrist first the engaging my forearm, then elbow. Leading with the elbow (wrist and forearm locked) here in my kitchen feels like a whole different thing and doesn’t hurt.

Cheers
Barry
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Re: Stopless.

#27

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Barry,

For it to hurt on the outside I suspect external horizontal rotation…
45459BA5-8B37-43E8-8CD3-6D8866B56B1B.png
For both accuracy and open distance I try to keep the elbow in front of the shoulder using flexion and extension. For distance I do allow my elbow to travel out but not past the square line of the shoulders.

For 170 it’s different. There is abduction at the start of the backcast and then the force is applied by straightening the elbow, the best description I can offer is like throwing a frisbee on its side (vertically). From this position there is Slide/Drift to reposition the elbow back in front of the shoulder for the beginning of the forward Casting Stroke.

Certainly pain is never good when casting. And we absolutely must isolate it and find a different use of the shoulder.

Leading with the wrist on the forward cast also makes me think external horizontal rotation on the backcast.

Here is a video of an exercise I use and teach.


Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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Re: Stopless.

#28

Post by Paul Arden »

Open Stance Distance
0C923DFD-DD18-4B3D-9422-FA8D27EA51EF.jpeg
I’ve rotated my core to bring the elbow past the square of the cast; the elbow is nowhere near the square of shoulders.

I suspect from your description that you are using external horizontal rotation?

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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barrysthlm
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Re: Stopless.

#29

Post by barrysthlm »

Yes! External horizontal rotation is what I’ve been doing. I think I might be trying an extension after that for extra drift..I’m bringing my elbow way too far back.


With a lot of line out I’ve developed a backcast where my elbow is ending up extended behind my shoulder. The pain comes on the stop in the backcast. Now I’ll try experimenting with using my core to put my elbow back rather than shoulder rotation, keeping my elbow in front of my shoulder.

This is invaluable Paul, thank you so much.
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Re: Stopless.

#30

Post by Paul Arden »

Great! That should make a difference Barry. It might feel a bit strange at first but changes usually do.

Something else to play with on the Open Stance Distance backcast is this idea of a “sequential stop”. First the elbow stops moving and then the wrist freely flips over. When I hold the rod I hold it aligned as one would hold say a tennis ball. I allow my wrist on my backcast to flip over to its maximum position, the final rod angle having been set earlier by the position of the forearm.

The point of this is, that on the backcast I am not thinking about applying power through the stroke; instead, if I am thinking about my body movements, I think about stopping the forearm (John calls it “blocking”). This sudden forearm Stop/Block allows the hand or wrist to naturally flip over and this is where the speed comes from.

It’s identical (or almost identical) on the forward cast too. This can made a huge difference to our casting because we’re not applying power with the forearm, but allowing the body to generate speed through the soft wrist.

If you look closely at the Open Stance Distance casts in the video above you can clearly see this. What I often see is flycasters trying to apply force with both forearm and hand together throughout the stroke followed by stopping both simultaneously. I’m quite convinced that the way I’ve described it is not only more effective but it involves less effort as well.

If you’re changing one thing you might as well change both :)

I really like that carry drill above. There are significant gear changes involved. When you switch from Open Stance Distance to 170 you can hear the line speed difference. As always, once you have the movements in place just think about the targets.

I have a sequence that you might like. I think about weight shift at the feet for a few casts, then I think about tracking (drawing straight back from the target), then I think about delayed rotation and applying force through rotation, I think about the hauls, I focus on targets. And then, finally, I focus on the launch. I spend a few casts working on each separately building from the ground up. It’s important to remain relaxed and fluid. If we tense up we fail. Smoothness is at the core I believe.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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