Stopless.

[barrysthlm]

Hello all,

I am stuck at about 100ft and am not sure what my next step should be. I’m using MED and a 9’ #5.

On my final backcast the loop doesn’t roll out nicely but instead goes all weird with what looks like shockwaves. I am still using hard stops here with about 70-75ft of carry. The resulting forward cast is awful. More power isn’t helping, but I had to try..

I’ve watched some videos here and read some old posts and I think I have to delay my haul a bit, but maybe also move on from the hard stops/pull back. The problem is I can’t find anything that explains what stopless actually is in terms of what I should physically do at the end of the stroke…any advice?

Barry

[James9118]

Hi Barry,

Before I get into this I should start by saying 100ft with a #5 is an excellent cast, far better than 99% of fly anglers can manage. However, if you want to get into serious distance i.e. 120ft plus with the MED then you have to be super critical of your technique. As such, take the following as me being super-critical whilst accepting you're already a top 1% type caster:

100ft from a 70 - 75ft carry is not optimum. I would expect casts over 110ft with the odd one approaching 120ft if that carry was 'good' (below is a film of Tracy - she routinely carries about the same as you but hits bigger distances). I would therefore suspect that your carry isn't as good as it should be, either with slack or tracking issues etc. Take a really long hard look at this and ask yourself 'is my 70-75ft carry as good as it possibly can be?' If it isn't there's lots of exercises to try. I favour making up a shooting head (ideally from an old MED #5) that fixes your carry at 75ft so you don't get distracted by other things. You can then work on perfecting this, min power, tracking, trajectory control, hauling etc., etc.

Until you absolutely nail the 70-75ft carry I wouldn't even think about moving to a 'stopless' stroke.

Cheers, James.

[barrysthlm]

Thanks James!

There’s definitely something wrong with the carry. I guess my theory that it was the stops is wrong then. Watching the video I can say that I most likely don’t have that line speed, my pauses are much longer at 75ft of carry.

Barry

[Bianchetti Ivan]

I would recommend using the rod first without using the hand that does not hold, accelerating only when the heel exceeds the vertical, reached the limit, do the opposite (i.e. use the hand that does not hold and accelerate the pull when the rod is vertical) trying not to use the lever) this as a workout will help you divide the two avoid sudden jerks but keep the tension.

[nicholasfmoore]

100’ is really exceptional with a #5, so well done!

James taught me to throw post 100’ and he’s really great. His advice is excellent.

A video of you casting would useful, front and side shots. I agree with James R.e the 70-75’ carry, you don’t need stopless for that, it’s a compact stroke to hit 100’ even 110’. Stopless only works well with that line when you carry mid to high 80’s with speed.

All the best

[Paul Arden]

Hi Barry,

I’m just out the jungle and pretty shot

Can you describe to me the final moments of your delivery cast? Ie are you trying to stop hard by squeezing the hand? Or something else?

Thanks,
Paul

[barrysthlm]

Hi Paul,

I am stopping hard, usually with a little bounce. I’m not intentionally squeezing my hand. I think I might be gripping too hard through the entire stroke.

Regards

Barry

[barrysthlm]

100’ is really exceptional with a #5, so well done!

Thanks for all the encouraging words. Sometimes I feel like I should just be happy with what I can do, but something makes me want to throw further. It’s frustrating because it’s not happening fast enough. My roll casting and accuracy have improved immensely but I feel like I’m just not moving on distance.

[Paul Arden]

Hi Barry,

Instead of a hard stop, think about throwing a ball. When you throw a ball you don’t squeeze the ball but instead release it. There is a progression in distance where you hit a wall with the hard stop and need to unlearn it and go “stopless”. That’s usually around 110’. It sounds to me that you’re approaching that wall. This is not the full blown 170/stopless stroke, but simply the final moments of the casting stroke.

I would initially separate the strokes. On the backcast, with the open stance distance stroke, the effort should not be applied throughout the stroke but instead the “effort” should be applied to stopping the forearm only. A soft wrist is then allowed to flop over… fast. In my mind’s eye (or indeed sometimes literally) I am aiming at a target point behind and above me. The key movement is stopping the forearm, allowing the wrist to flop over.

On the forward cast, lead through with the butt of the rod, as you will already be doing to throw 100, but instead of making a hard stop, flop the hand right around and over the target. No tension in the upper arm, just keep everything tracking straight and I would recommend intentional opening the loops by doming the force around at the end of the delivery. No tension, just turn the rod right over, like you were throwing a ball.

As you work through those exercises don’t care about distance. Don’t measure your casts. It’s unimportant because you are changing the end of your stroke from a hard stop to a flop. This will take quite a few sessions; it could even take a few weeks to ingrain it. When I teach this I teach to throw really wide loops. It’s very common to find that the caster is trying to move his hand, and apply power, straight to a target point. This actually inhibits distance. You need to dome the hand right over through an arc (the real meaning of arc!!) in other words, curve the hand path through the vertical plane at the end of the stroke.

You can tighten up the loops later. The important thing is to change the power application. We need to get rid of the tension in the body, that is currently being used to stop the butt and truncate the stroke, and instead open up.

The first thing you’ll find, after you have made the change, is that you will be able to throw the same distance with less effort, despite the loops being wider. Then you can start adding speed but only at the very end of the stroke; you’ll also be able to carry more line with this technique.

———

The next thing will be to take this technique further. Weight shift, rod under forearm on backcast, cradle grip, sighting, lots of attention to the hauling and, finally, The Launch. But if you run through the top changes first, then quite quickly you’ll be able to hit the same distance with less effort (you might actually find more). And then we can open the door to the full-blown 170.

I regard this step to be the most important change in distance. After this the distance increases are smaller and harder to obtain. Have fun playing with it and do not worry about distance when first making the change

Cheers, Paul

[barrysthlm]

Thanks Paul!

I just had the first chance to try this and the results were surprising!

I tried letting the wrist flop over and this got rid of the jerkiness I was describing, and realized that I’ve been casting with my entire shoulder and arm stiff. The exercise allowed me to relax my entire arm and shoulder and it felt a bit dodgy, but the rod started moving way faster and the line speed was noticeably faster. I wasn’t aiming for distance but hit the back of the net at 95ft with the fly line a few times. So I think the problems with carry James was describing were probably due this stiffness.

This feels like a completely different cast and it will take a few more sessions to figure out how to control the loops, which aren’t pretty as you said Paul. There isn’t really any control on launch at all now. The line speed should make life much easier though. I’m looking forward to building on this.

/Barry