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Tailing loops

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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Tailing loops

#11

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

whinging pom wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:42 pm Lasse
Damn they are just some of the prettiest, most elegant, picture book perfect tailing loops that I ever did see!
(and ive seen heaps :( )... Just Gorgeous.
Can you not do anything just plain ugly and rubbish?!
Great video .... again
( cant help the OP but looking forward to learning from the answers)
pom
Thanks pom, but its the slomo that makes it look good, not me :blush:



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Lasse
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Paul Arden
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Re: Tailing loops

#12

Post by Paul Arden »

VGB wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:12 am
Paul Arden wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:08 am As Lasse writes, starting the stroke too early is a common cause (one that is often given very little consideration actually).
Often because the caster does not or cannot watch the back cast :)

Regards

Vince
Certainly can be but there are many cases of instructors teaching to begin the cast at Loop Straight or hitting the “J”.

Last week I was playing with this on the boat roof, because I have a couple of above-intermediate students currently, who either have or had this as a recurring problem. The first was after we had tightened his backcasts (it has since gone), the second came with it when we started and we are currently working through it.

I think it’s actually a Dangling End and not a true Tail. I can cast it at will by hitting loop straight with a rod backcast angle of 45 degrees / 1.30 o clock. However if I allow all the tension to disappear out of the line then it immediately disappears. If instead of 1.30 I only go to 12.30 the problem also disappears (obviously trajectories have to be accounted for here), which left me with the distinct impression that it was a result of tension in the line coupled with a rising rod tip path at the beginning of the casting stroke (Dangling End). This is different to what I had thought was happening, which was a surge of energy pulling down the rod tip at the beginning of the casting stroke, followed by a rising rod tip as the surge dissipates — Tailing Loop).

And I think that’s a pretty important distinction, because for my accuracy casting I hit Loop Straight. For longer casts I delay until the tension has left the line.

I’d be interested to know what others find. I will try repeating this on video because it was an interesting session.

Sorry Pink Piranha; it’s gone a bit technical and it may be still completely different to what you are doing!! :D However it’s definitely, IMO, a transition issue between back and forward strokes. And the more you try to fix it the worse it gets!!! I will make that video and hopefully it will shine some light on this.

Cheers, Paul
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VGB
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Re: Tailing loops

#13

Post by VGB »

Hi Paul

I tend to think of the fly leg being straight or not straight because there’s a few ways of cocking it up. When I was putting DNs out and in the fly leg, I didn’t rotate into the loop. Shortening the stroke like that can bring out all sorts of odd line configurations that would traditionally be called tails but may just be the fly leg traveling under its own steam after loop formation and the loop isn’t rotating particularly well.

It’s where old/new way scores because you just teach the revised stroke instead of fiddling at the edges of a problem, and hoping the student doesn’t drop into their old groove as soon as they leave the lesson.

Regards

Vince
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Re: Tailing loops

#14

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Vince,

It is certainly a good case for old/new but in the first case the “new” revealed it! For him, waiting a little longer solved the problem but it took a lot of hard work to ingrain the new timing. PlayIng around with Drift helped, because it forced him to wait a little longer. In his case he always felt that he had to rush and the longer the aerielised length the more rushed he felt, despite the opposite being the case.

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VGB
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Re: Tailing loops

#15

Post by VGB »

Teaching students faults so that you can fix them is a great business model :D :D
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Re: Tailing loops

#16

Post by Paul Arden »

Shhh! Don’t tell anyone!
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Re: Tailing loops

#17

Post by Paul Arden »

It does of course highlight one of the weaknesses of improving a stroke one step at a time. Fix one problem and another appears. In this case, tighten the back loop, and tendency to tail appears. Another example is to fix in-built Creep resulting in a tight loop and you end up with a wide arc and an open loop. It’s also a lot bloody harder to make subtle changes long lasting and you need to find clever ways to reinforce it. That said, it’s still an approach we need to do regularly.

I didn’t get a chance to shoot the video yet today and about to head out looking for Snakehead. But I’ll be on the roof tomorrow morning and will put something together. I’m pretty sure I can guess the tip path but it will be nice to see confirmation.

There are a few ingrained casting faults that are not very well analysed and this I believe is one of them. It’s very frustrating for both student and teacher as well. There is no real quick permanent fix to this one either and it’s a long haul challenge. At least if I can demonstrate it we can see if this is the cause. The good news is that it is cured with a small adjustment to timing. The problem is ingraining the new timing so that it is, as you described to me earlier, subconscious.

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Tailing loops

#18

Post by James9118 »

Hi pinkpiranha,

An additional thing to consider - have a think about what angle your rod-tip is making with the line when you are starting the forward cast. If it is at 90 degrees to the line then the rod tip will deflect with very little force application. However if the rod is pointing down the line then the rod tip is insensitive to deviations caused by the initial force. As already mentioned in this thread, a tail that appears late in the cast has almost always been caused by a fault that is early in the casting stroke.

Also, if you don't look at your back cast ask someone who knows about casting whether you're tailing the b/c as well.

James
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Re: Tailing loops

#19

Post by Morsie »

Hey pinkpiranha, Large wind resistant flies will slow down your line speed (like a drogue) so you will need to pause longer on the bc, especially if you aren't watching - or alternatively increase your line speed. But a better pause is betterer.
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Re: Tailing loops

#20

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo »

Paul Arden wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:27 pm
And I think that’s a pretty important distinction, because for my accuracy casting I hit Loop Straight. For longer casts I delay until the tension has left the line.

I’d be interested to know what others find. I will try repeating this on video because it was an interesting session.


Cheers, Paul
Paul,

I think I understand what you meant above about "loop straight"? But, how do you know when that is if you are not looking? So, how does loop straight feel?

Also, I don't get the delay until tension "has left the line" on longer casts.

Could you please expound a bit on those statements?

Thanks

Gary
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