Tailing loops

[Paul Arden]

Hi Gary,

I turn my head and look over my shoulder! After loop straight there is a small boing and the tension disappears (you can see the line has gone slack). While a slow start of the stroke can begin before this point the rapid acceleration for me has to begin afterwards. Otherwise the loop fails for me when distance casting.

Many years ago I tried experimenting with hitting LSP with a friend laying on the ground and calling it on the 170 (Mike Heritage). Every time I hit it I had huge problems with the resulting loop, mostly tails and other faulty loops that haven’t been described in literature yet.

Cheers, Paul

[Lasse Karlsson]

Given that the time it takes for Mike to call out LSP and for you to react and move, I am not surpriced it didn't work out

Wondering if I could catch the late tail on film, lets see who gets footage first

Cheers
Lasse

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Paul,

Thanks...

When accuracy casting, I'm not quick enough to turn my head to watch the loop and then get back to the target, so I have had to do it by feel.

And, conversely, when just going all out for distance, I don't get a "boing"... I guess I'm either trying to carry too much or my back cast just isn't fast enough.

Instead, I actually feel a loss of tension soon after the loop forms at the rod tip. During that time I am feeding line back from the haul and the dip (or whatever you call it in bouncing bomb terms) gets pulled out. Tension increases as the legs straighten... and then there is a big increase. I have always imagined that the big increase happens when the leader straightens and everything begins to fall... which feels like the entire weight of the line is now on the rod tip.

That is what I use as a clue to begin the presentation stroke.

In fact, when I am fishing (which sometimes requires both accuracy and some distance), and my casting is not going as well as I like, the first thing I do is tell myself to wait for the weight. I find that I am usually beginning too quickly, especially if I am using bigger flies that cause the back cast longer to straighten.

I guess I really need to figure out how to video myself... but I'm afraid of what I am going to see!

[James9118]

Wondering if I could catch the late tail on film, lets see who gets footage first

Cheers
Lasse

There's a clip of Flip Pallot on You-Tube where he chucks quite a few (unintentional) late tails.

And, conversely, when just going all out for distance, I don't get a "boing"... I guess I'm either trying to carry too much or my back cast just isn't fast enough.

Don't worry - I don't get it either

James

[Lasse Karlsson]

I guess I really need to figure out how to video myself... but I'm afraid of what I am going to see!

Have you got a smartphone? If yes, get a small tripod with a clamp for a mobile. Turn on camera, set to video, start taping, go in front and cast. Afterwards you can trim out all the walking. And yeah, sometimes its ugly what gets caught in HD and slomo, but it is also a great learning tool.

It might have been the best advice Paul has ever given me, that I went out and bought a camcorder 20 years ago!

Cheers
Lasse

[Paul Arden]

It’s possible to look there before you cast Gary. It’s not a race then I just look the other way and see what the loop has done. I’m with you on feeling the boing. I don’t get it either on a long cast, and I certainly don’t have the ability to hit it with certainty without someone else watching it. But I know it’s there because if I just leave my rod tip in position it deflects when the loop fully unrolls.

So what we did was Mike lay on the ground in front of me where he could see both my rod and Loop Straight. He had noticed that my CS (not Slide) was beginning after LSP. So from his position he would call LS while false casting the long carry and I would adjust my timing to actually hit it on the forward cast. Not only did it feel wrong (well it would anyway) but the loops collapsed in interesting ways.

This left me with the conclusion that no one else did either and hitting the boing or the J was in fact anticipating the forward cast (or at least the hit of the forward cast, SUAS, powersnap etc) to be close to but after LSP. For me it doesn’t even need to be close to and the longer I can put between LSP and the Hit the better (long stroke).

Incidentally I think that the boing is flyline loop straight and not leader loop straight. Which also has interesting implications.

Too hot for a video but it is coming Lasse

Cheers, Paul

[pinkpiranha]

Absolutely spot on with the line not straightening behind. I've corrected that.....but by watching my back casts I've realised I've got a few other problems...loops are big, and tracking is out a bit...and the rod doesn't seem to load as much on the backcast. On a positive note, this generally has given me a bit more confidence, and I've managed to cut down a bit on the false casts. It has shown me that I've got a lot of work to do......

Sorry....I've just seen there are additional comments. Thanks all for your advice. It's been really helpful.

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Paul,

Man... you really had me scratching my head!

It’s possible to look there before you cast Gary. It’s not a race then I just look the other way and see what the loop has done.

Look where? At the target of course... but you said over your shoulder?

It took me a while to realize my accuracy casting is not the same as your's. When I'm fishing, it sort of is a race! I have to pick a target and get the fly there pretty quickly as stuff is moving (fish, current, boat, etc.). So, I don't have time to be looking back and forth while making multiple false casts. In the salt it is pretty much a one back cast deal.

In fact, when I teach, I tell students to definitely watch their back cast to practice... but only to develop their feel... and never to take their eyes off the target when they fish.

I’m with you on feeling the boing. I don’t get it either on a long cast, and I certainly don’t have the ability to hit it with certainty without someone else watching it. But I know it’s there because if I just leave my rod tip in position it deflects when the loop fully unrolls.

I think we are saying the same thing here, sort of. That rod tip deflection that happens when the loop fully unrolls is the "weight" I feel as the line begins to fall. Again, I have to do it by feel because I don't want to take my eyes off of where I want the fly to go. What confused me was when you said there was a loss of tension. To me it seems like an increase.

After the back cast haul, the line tension initially increases between my finger and the stripping guide as I feed line back. Then the tension increases in the rod. And finally, when the line straightens out, and stalls, then begins to fall, the tension (or weight) really comes on. Thats what I look for.

Are we on the same page?

[pinkpiranha]

"It is certainly a good case for old/new but in the first case the “new” revealed it! For him, waiting a little longer solved the problem but it took a lot of hard work to ingrain the new timing. PlayIng around with Drift helped, because it forced him to wait a little longer. In his case he always felt that he had to rush and the longer the aerielised length the more rushed he felt, despite the opposite being the case."

This is definitely me...worrying about it falling in a heap the more line that's out. Probably why I speed up last forward cast.

I understand some of the tech bits....sort of... but it's really interesting

[pinkpiranha]

It does of course highlight one of the weaknesses of improving a stroke one step at a time. Fix one problem and another appears. In this case, tighten the back loop, and tendency to tail appears. Another example is to fix in-built Creep resulting in a tight loop and you end up with a wide arc and an open loop. It’s also a lot bloody harder to make subtle changes long lasting and you need to find clever ways to reinforce it. That said, it’s still an approach we need to do regularly.

I didn’t get a chance to shoot the video yet today and about to head out looking for Snakehead. But I’ll be on the roof tomorrow morning and will put something together. I’m pretty sure I can guess the tip path but it will be nice to see confirmation.

There are a few ingrained casting faults that are not very well analysed and this I believe is one of them. It’s very frustrating for both student and teacher as well. There is no real quick permanent fix to this one either and it’s a long haul challenge. At least if I can demonstrate it we can see if this is the cause. The good news is that it is cured with a small adjustment to timing. The problem is ingraining the new timing so that it is, as you described to me earlier, subconscious.

Cheers, Paul

Snakehead.....wow.

As I said really appreciate all the help.... look forward to seeing the video