push or pull

[Paul Arden]

Absolutely. I think it also has to be in proportion. With the longer carry (that’s a 92’ carry at the end) the loop must start wide or it will morph into a collision. Most important for me is straight fly leg and a tight V.

Here is another one on the forward delivery…

Not as aggressive going forwards (I wish it was) but this might also be down to shooting line.

I do think tight loops off the tip can be important in fishing, but not for distance or casting into the wind. Where they matter is casting in the sticks. And then I use pull-back. If I want it look pretty I’ll throw it off the side…

5C0E546B-507A-4FD6-9A7C-F9DD814298ED.jpeg (75.1 KiB) Viewed 1129 times

There seems to be an obsession with tight loops. I have half a lesson planned in this for three of my classes at the moment. We can have a look at it this week.

Off fishing now

Cheers, Paul

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Hi Paul, If the loop forms at RSP then any movement of the tip after RSP effects the rod leg of the line. (How am I doing ) So if you do that stab, jab, push thing after RSP and it’s angled upward then it closes the loop by raising the rod leg closer to the fly leg. But … if you do the wrist flip flop flail instead of the upward stab then it should open the loop (because the tip drops and lowers the rod leg) … which it seems to do from my experience. I haven’t gotten to the lesson yet where I learn how to tighten the loops of the 170. I’m interested in finding out how that is done because it seems impossible! Cheers, Ron

Ron,

There is a finer point (Hah!) to realize about your question.

The thrust to sharpen the loop when casting (for fishing) into the wind takes place prior to RSP. It is also coordinated with the haul.

You can affect the apparent loop shape somewhat by lifting the rod tip after RSP which will bring the rod leg closer to the fly leg, but that is actually a reach, not thrust. And I don't think it helps much but it can make a photo look better... and best only done with a fluff. This type of reach is actually an error in my mind, as it brings the rod tip closer to the path of the fly and should be avoided. In fact, a different reach, say slightly inward toward the center of the body, will move the rod tip away from the path of the fly... a prudent move when casting flies with lead eyes!

There is another slight movement that is not often realized, and that is the fact that the rod hand can be lifted up closer to the established path of the rod tip/ fly leg while the rod is bent but prior to RSP without negatively effecting the fly leg. Doing that in coordination with the thrust and haul makes things even better.

The above stuff is better learned or taught first with a slower rod. It can still be done with a fast saltwater type rod but takes practice.

[Lasse Karlsson]

I wish everybody would talk about loop size from looking at the same perspective, just like rod bend it depends on the angle wieved.

Bottom two loops have the same separation between rod and flyleg, but one looks much cooler, so thats the one most demo

Cheers
Lasse

[RSalar]

There is another slight movement that is not often realized, and that is the fact that the rod hand can be lifted up closer to the established path of the rod tip/ fly leg while the rod is bent but prior to RSP without negatively effecting the fly leg. Doing that in coordination with the thrust and haul makes things even better.

The above stuff is better learned or taught first with a slower rod. It can still be done with a fast saltwater type rod but takes practice.

“the rod hand can be lifted up closer to the established path of the rod tip/ fly leg while the rod is bent”

When you lift the rod hand do you maintain the existing angle of the rod? What is that angle? I assume the rod is angled slighting up— so if you maintain that angle you are in fact raising the tip.

If I’m picturing this correctly?

—thanks, ron

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Ron,

Sorry, I tried to specify that I was talking about a fishing cast into the wind where thrust (aka a "push") is quite beneficial. I realize that the main focus on most of these discussions is primarily about maximizing distance although that fact is often left unstated.

I find the two scenarios are quite different, like where a "thrust" with a high rod angle is often not the best choice.

For the fishing cast I was talking about, the "rod angle", or at least the angle of the butt section, is often near horizontal or even slightly declined.

Instead of trying to picture it, go out with your rod and play with some bow & arrow casts. Then try to picture how a thrust can be employed in a cast a lot like a dynamic bow & arrow.

Once the rod has mostly unloaded, and the line path has been established, raising the rod hand can bring the rod butt almost parallel to the line. Then thrusting delays the rod tip, flattens counterflex and create a loop so pointy that it could pop a balloon.

[Phil Blackmar]

Ron,

For the fishing cast I was talking about, the "rod angle", or at least the angle of the butt section, is often near horizontal or even slightly declined.

Instead of trying to picture it, go out with your rod and play with some bow & arrow casts. Then try to picture how a thrust can be employed in a cast a lot like a dynamic bow & arrow.

Once the rod has mostly unloaded, and the line path has been established, raising the rod hand can bring the rod butt almost parallel to the line. Then thrusting delays the rod tip, flattens counterflex and create a loop so pointy that it could pop a balloon.

Patience is a virtue, possess it if you can. Sometimes found........ I'm not a patient man Gary, hard to get my hands to wait that long before going...

[jarmo]

“Flail” is a great description. You can’t flail if you are tense. I ask students to go through the motion of blocking the forearm without the rod and allowing the hand to flip over. That flip (flail!) to me it the real driving force of the rod. When that is ingrained, then it’s relatively easy to put the haul in at this point too.

Hi Paul!

What is your target timing of the haul w.r.t. the flail?

(Have spent a couple of sessions on this, promising but kinda hard.)

[Paul Arden]

Hi Jarmo, the rapid part of the haul coincides with the flail. I find it difficult to separate the two.

One think I have found is that to teach the “haul hit” (?) it’s easier to learn with the hauling arm approaching the straight arm position. A common hauling issue that I see is a haul that begins too fast. I think it should start by feeling the line and gradually accelerate.

Cheers, Paul

[jarmo]

Hi Jarmo, the rapid part of the haul coincides with the flail. I find it difficult to separate the two.

One think I have found is that to teach the “haul hit” (?) it’s easier to learn with the hauling arm approaching the straight arm position. A common hauling issue that I see is a haul that begins too fast. I think it should start by feeling the line and gradually accelerate.

Those comments addressed my concerns. I have tried to time the beginning of the haul to match the beginning of the flail. I suspect the haul should begin earlier.

Thanks!

[Paul Arden]

The intermediate double hauling video shows a “haul twist”. That can be a useful exercise to help coordinate things.