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push or pull

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Phil Blackmar
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push or pull

#1

Post by Phil Blackmar »

I have a question- Fishing cast not distance. I am stuck between whether to pull entirely or push at the end of the stroke on casts in the 70+ ft. I like to delay rotation as long as possible and consequently the pull feels best. Also, for accuracy 50 ft and under a pull feels most accurate and I have best control of the top line and fly this way. Back to the longer cast, throwing a 7-9 wt rod with a decent size fly which needs to be turned over for a good layout, my most consistent cast is a pull. However, at times it doesn't finish and turn over that well, particularly into the wind or with a bulky fly.

In practice, I experiment with adding a push at the end. When I time it exactly right, it throws a superb loop and turns over a little better than the pull and stop. However, the timing is challenging. I seem more likely to hit it a little early because when its not timed just right, the fly kicks upward upon layout. I hate that.... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: If I try to rotate thru the stroke, rather than delay rotation, it seems to make it a little easier but the pull still feels most consistent.

Do you all have a preference for this type of cast? Do I just need to continuing to practice to get more consistent with adding a push? Is less wrist hinge and/or earlier rotation the way to go? Or, do I just stick with the pull? One note, when I add stroke length to the pull by raising my elbow, there is a longer transition before accelerating the rod and I do seem to get a better result with the pull.

Just curious what you all prefer

Thanks

Phil
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Graeme H
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Re: push or pull

#2

Post by Graeme H »

Hi Phil,

I don't know how I could answer this question, since I haven't been able to differentiate between a push and a pull in my casting. I'll be interested to see how others answer though.

Cheers,
Graeme
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John Waters
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Re: push or pull

#3

Post by John Waters »

Hi Phil,

I view the casting stroke as a pull movement of the rod hand which concludes with a follow through movement, which, can be either a block or stopless .
movement.

John
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Paul Arden
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Re: push or pull

#4

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Phil,

From those descriptions the Pull/Push is also sometimes known as Swoop or Thrust. I do use this to tighten the loop sometimes.

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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Mangrove Cuckoo
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Re: push or pull

#5

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo »

Phil,

It would be great if there was a definition or explanation for the push and pull concepts here on SL!

Curiously, Mac Brown (who was the highlight of the Atlanta show, as usual) has a very concise description of both concepts... and he spends a large portion of his demos explaining why he believes pulling is the answer and pushing is poor technique.

But his concepts of push/pull are not in alignment with what I find is somewhat vaguely referenced here. Unfortunately, Mac is almost always speaking to trout anglers when I see his demos and I do not have any idea how he addresses tournament casts.

FWIW... On the delivery stroke I think I pull when my rod hand is behind my shoulder, and/or the rod is behind vertical, and I push when they are not. But that is nowhere close to what Mac describes.

So, I guess I do a bit of both when necessary for fishing casts.
With appreciation and apologies to Ray Charles…

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Paul Arden
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Re: push or pull

#6

Post by Paul Arden »

It can be very confusing Gary, which Is why I have moved away from using the terms push/pull over the years. Like many people I was very inspired by Mel when he was using the term and when it’s described in person it does seem to work for many people. However over the years I’ve realised that it doesn’t work for anyone and in written descriptions it can be very confusing. Particularly in different languages!!

Something that dawned on me, partly through our discussions here, and also some of the video conference teaching I’ve been doing, is that how we grip the rod can relate to this.

You might like this…. Try casting with the main pressure grip being between the thumb and forefinger (screwdriver grip) and compare this to holding the grip predominantly squeezing the bottom two fingers (I can’t think of a comparison for this). When I squeeze with the lower two fingers, it automatically creates a pulling motion starting from the shoulders. Or at least it’s the most likely occurrence for push/pull.

I do know one thing; it’s great to try all grips and all techniques. Set of babies passing the boat. Later…
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

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RSalar
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Re: push or pull

#7

Post by RSalar »

Paul Arden wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:33 am You might like this…. Try casting with the main pressure grip being between the thumb and forefinger (screwdriver grip) and compare this to holding the grip predominantly squeezing the bottom two fingers (I can’t think of a comparison for this). When I squeeze with the lower two fingers, it automatically creates a pulling motion starting from the shoulders. Or at least it’s the most likely occurrence for push/pull.
That’s a great exercise Paul. I found that by just squeezing with my lower two fingers it’s almost impossible to overpower the rod. Having the thumb on top gives the feeling of pushing with the thumb and tends to bring the rod arm into play more and to excess. “Pulling” the rod through the stroke also tends to delay the rotation until the end when the rod arm stops and the wrist flips over. I believe that is the correct time to haul? I am working on that but it feels very odd still. My tendency is to haul during the entire stroke instead at just the end. It’s a journey!

Cheers!

Ron
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: push or pull

#8

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

Push/pull....

Weird concepts if one thinks about it, we always pull the line, really hard and non productive to push a line with a bendy stick. But having grown up flyfioshing wise in Scandinavia where some dude in the late 80's created the best and most economically way of casting, and told everyone not doing that that they where inefficient and crap, I can see where the lure comes from. His followers continued through the 90's and early 00's to push that agenda, actually think they still do, but they also say stuff like the power of a flyrod is in the butt, and you have to bend it deep before it works, ie. big spring fanatics selling snake oil, I tend to not watch their demo's anymore :D I completly lost interest after a big article by one of them stating that competition distance casters looked like jumping jacks and where highly inefficent casters :D

I shot this clip quite a while back to adress the issue, the amount of people still telling me that the first cast is the most energy efficient one, is amazing... The first cast is what is deemed a pulling stroke, rest is said to be pushing, I think they all pull the line, but I am often told I am wrong and know nothing :D




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Lasse
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Flycasting, so simple that instructors need to make it complicated since 1685

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RSalar
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Re: push or pull

#9

Post by RSalar »

I am not sure if these terms have a special meaning when applied to fly casting but in the real world the definitions are pretty clear:

Pull: exert force on (someone or something) so as to cause movement toward oneself.
"he pulled them down onto the couch"

Push: exert force on (someone or something), typically with one's hand, in order to move them away from oneself or the origin of the force.
"she pushed her glass toward him"

If we use the real world definitions then when we are applying force to the rod in a direction that is towards our body we are pulling and when the force is applied away from our body it is a push.

So the terms only apply to the rod's translation movement and do not apply to the rod's rotation. If "translations" is the term for the rod butt/hand's motion in the horizontal plane what is the motion of the butt in the vertical plane is called? When I visualize the difference I see the butt of the rod leading during the pull and the tip leading during the push. But I'm very new to trying to describe casting motions. :pirate:

Skol,

Ron
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John Waters
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Re: push or pull

#10

Post by John Waters »

My view on this Ron is that for short line casting, the elbow path means there is a pull down on the forward cast, no push, and in long line or distance casting it is all pull, no push. Rotation is still a pulling motion, as is translation. The "push" gains popularity the further the hand moves from the body on the forward cast but that is a decelerating motion and in my view, is follow-through. You can still use the \//// or \/------ illustrations but both need to be qualified with the fact that the \/ happens close to the body and is a predominantly a pulling, rotational movement.

Lasse is correct, "we always pull the line".

John
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