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Thrust?

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Morsie
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Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:14 am

Thrust?

#1

Post by Morsie » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:17 am

When Al Buhr uses the term "THRUST" what does he mean?

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Graeme H
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Re: Thrust?

#2

Post by Graeme H » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:31 am

He could have been talking about what was called "torque thrust" here for some time before it was recently called "torque twist".

It's the thrust of the rod at the end of this cast:



Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI

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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Thrust?

#3

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:14 pm

Al Buhr coined the torque twist in his book 😉

Morsie, why don't you shoot Al a email and ask? I'm sure he'll be happy to elaborate 😊

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Lasse
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Paul Arden
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Re: Thrust?

#4

Post by Paul Arden » Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:14 pm

For me Thrust is the driving of the rod butt forwards and upwards during the second half of rotation. The hand swoops following a pronounced V. Here is a video from Alejandro and the big hitters from early SL days.



[media] [/media]

Cheers, Paul
It's an exploration; bring a flyrod.

Flycasting Definitions

Morsie
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Re: Thrust?

#5

Post by Morsie » Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:13 pm

I have done as you have suggested Lasse and if he gets back to me lets see if its any clearer than it is in his book. I was looking for other interpretation of what people think it means by it.

Morsie
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Re: Thrust?

#6

Post by Morsie » Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:29 pm

From Al.

"The term 'thrust' is applied energy during a movement, to some degree, defines momentum that directs the oncoming line path or position.
'Thrust' during a move allows a line to move toward a intended placement or path. 'Thrust' is the casters intentional effort to create/aim momentum.
Why noted as such? Casting folks get a mindset with straight-line type casting and resist accepting one motion with multi line moves in making a change of direction cast.
There are several casts, or moves tagged onto a cast to modify the setup, which do rely on applied energy or thrust to propel/align the line path out beyond the rod's length. And this is a mechanic that 'straight-line folk' do use, but,,,, then,, argue that it is not possible,,,, (well some anyway,,, LOL,,, the age old question,,, 'is the earth flat or round?)....
No worries, your not the only one who has asked. I needed to define 'applying energy' in a motion. A word that is not a shock move like power or snap. a word that gives a notion of energy and also aimed somewhere intentional (which is very important)...."

And a follow up.

"All casts are regulated by two factors the rod-track (line path) and energy applied during the track (thrust or whatever else one wishing to describe it). In a simple overhead both the track and applied energy maintain one vector,,, but a Belgian type cast may swing to the side and in doing so, shift the track and energy use to better route the oncoming line travel. This regulation or control of track (the aim of momentum) and applied energy (within that track) defines how momentum is developed to make line positioning moves. This is the bases or fundamental of 'in-power' and 'out-of-power', a rule that defines all casting and best explains how/why 'constant tension' casts are possible as well as preformed. A vivid example is a 90-degree single spey done in 'figure-of-eight'.

It is very simplistic to say rod mechanics is a 'speed up to a stop', and in a simple overhead cast it can apply. However, a monolithic rule fails to define what is truely happening, thereby fails to support constant tension type casts. Its not a right or wrong issue, as in, if the research is just within simple overhead, then the findings are also within that narrow scope. Case-in-point: 'the line follows the rod'. Well that is half true! To explain all cast types the factual rule is: ' the line follows the rod and travels to the direction of momentum'. Now we see how change-of-direction casts are possible. This also defines how 'in-power and out-of-power' is the caster's effort the use 'line follows the rod (track) and travels to the direction of the momentum (a result of 'thrust' or applied momentum)'."

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Paul Arden
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Re: Thrust?

#7

Post by Paul Arden » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:57 am

And did that answer your question, Morsie?
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Mangrove Cuckoo
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Re: Thrust?

#8

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:10 pm

The timing of this thread, and Al's response, is simply amazing!

Also amazing is how slow I am on the uptake sometimes... which, sadly, I prove to myself over and over. :blush:

In Atalanta, Mac Brown gave a great demo (as usual), and at one point he was showing the simple moves to create an air mend... the familiar "out and back" hand path. Almost as an aside, he said altering those moves, to where one was quicker than the other, would create a curve since one direction created more momentum in the line than the other.

I am pretty sure I slapped myself in the forehead.

I find curve casts fascinating and I have tried and practiced many versions... but this simply one somehow has escaped me for how many years?

Thanks.
"Technique is the proof of your seriousness"

Wallace Stevens

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Bernd Ziesche
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Re: Thrust?

#9

Post by Bernd Ziesche » Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:54 pm

Morsie wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:29 pm
From Al.

"The term 'thrust' is applied energy during a movement, to some degree, defines momentum that directs the oncoming line path or position.
'Thrust' during a move allows a line to move toward a intended placement or path. 'Thrust' is the casters intentional effort to create/aim momentum.
Why noted as such? Casting folks get a mindset with straight-line type casting and resist accepting one motion with multi line moves in making a change of direction cast.
There are several casts, or moves tagged onto a cast to modify the setup, which do rely on applied energy or thrust to propel/align the line path out beyond the rod's length. And this is a mechanic that 'straight-line folk' do use, but,,,, then,, argue that it is not possible,,,, (well some anyway,,, LOL,,, the age old question,,, 'is the earth flat or round?)....
No worries, your not the only one who has asked. I needed to define 'applying energy' in a motion. A word that is not a shock move like power or snap. a word that gives a notion of energy and also aimed somewhere intentional (which is very important)...."

And a follow up.

"All casts are regulated by two factors the rod-track (line path) and energy applied during the track (thrust or whatever else one wishing to describe it). In a simple overhead both the track and applied energy maintain one vector,,, but a Belgian type cast may swing to the side and in doing so, shift the track and energy use to better route the oncoming line travel. This regulation or control of track (the aim of momentum) and applied energy (within that track) defines how momentum is developed to make line positioning moves. This is the bases or fundamental of 'in-power' and 'out-of-power', a rule that defines all casting and best explains how/why 'constant tension' casts are possible as well as preformed. A vivid example is a 90-degree single spey done in 'figure-of-eight'.

It is very simplistic to say rod mechanics is a 'speed up to a stop', and in a simple overhead cast it can apply. However, a monolithic rule fails to define what is truely happening, thereby fails to support constant tension type casts. Its not a right or wrong issue, as in, if the research is just within simple overhead, then the findings are also within that narrow scope. Case-in-point: 'the line follows the rod'. Well that is half true! To explain all cast types the factual rule is: ' the line follows the rod and travels to the direction of momentum'. Now we see how change-of-direction casts are possible. This also defines how 'in-power and out-of-power' is the caster's effort the use 'line follows the rod (track) and travels to the direction of the momentum (a result of 'thrust' or applied momentum)'."
Nice explanation of Al. Personally I failed to understand any of it. :cool:
Cheers
Bernd
http://www.first-cast.de
The first cast is always the best cast.

Morsie
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Re: Thrust?

#10

Post by Morsie » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:16 am

I interpret it as - thrust is the force applied at those moments when we need to pull curved lines straight.

Morsie

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