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Teaching Top hand v Bottom hand

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Paul Arden
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Re: Teaching Top hand v Bottom hand

#11

Post by Paul Arden » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:57 am

I honestly don’t see any difference. I usually curve up with the SH rod and teach this with the Jump Roll. With a short head it’s all rotation - ie bottom hand. With a long head it’s translation then rotation. And I think there are different styles here too. The underhand argument was that in the UK they were all top hand dominant 25 years ago, but this wasn’t true; they were simply using much longer lines, using a longer stroke and then pulling with the lower hand - ie delayed rotation.

I had a Sage TCR1510 which I gave away to a mate because he expressed an interest and I thought he’d get more use out of it. I fished it on the Waiau a few times, but it was overkill. I have one of the original Redington prototypes which apparently is a bit of a dog. And I have an old cane rod from my great grandfather which I’m sure would explode if I cast it. I think that was actually paired to a wooden reel! Unfortunately I threw the silk line away as a teenager because I didn’t know what it was :evil:

Anyway I have the rod ordered so I can have more meaningful discussions with you :kungfu: It will take a few months to arrive I’m sure. Tweed underwear here I come!

Cheers,
Paul
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Re: Teaching Top hand v Bottom hand

#12

Post by Mangrove Cuckoo » Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:44 pm

Paul,

I think I have a pair of those old Redington "dogs". I thoroughly enjoyed casting them though.

But, when I asked for help, and this was years ago, from a few DH experts, they all suggested I get some better rods.

If I ever do pursue that THCI I guess I'll have to upgrade. :D
"Technique is the proof of your seriousness"

Wallace Stevens

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Paul Arden
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Re: Teaching Top hand v Bottom hand

#13

Post by Paul Arden » Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:31 pm

Small world! I had no idea there were more in existence. I’m not even sure how I ended up with one :D
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Morsie
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Re: Teaching Top hand v Bottom hand

#14

Post by Morsie » Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:19 am



Lots of goodness here.

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Re: Teaching Top hand v Bottom hand

#15

Post by John Waters » Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:01 am

John Waters wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:57 am
Is his bottom hand static/blocked when he applies the big push over with the top hand? If so, is the bottom hand at hip height, chest height or other?

John
In addition to the above, is the right hand issue you mentioned in first post pertinent to overhead double handed or spey/roll double handed, or both?

John

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Will
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Re: Teaching Top hand v Bottom hand

#16

Post by Will » Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:06 am

I’m with Jarmo in that I tend to focus on getting the bottom hand away from the body during the sweep. Getting them to think about pushing the rod away from their body with both hands at the start of the sweep works well.

I’m wary of using “circle up” Morsie, as I think this often leads to chronic creep (especially if the bottom hand is close to the body). I’d rather have the tip (in the last part of the sweep) climbing back up in a straight line of about 30 degrees.

It’s interesting what gets in to our heads when we pick up a big DH. The urge to whack the thing seems overwhelming. I’ve watched people nearly throw themselves into the river they’ve tried that hard! Me included! :D

W.
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Re: Teaching Top hand v Bottom hand

#17

Post by Morsie » Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:35 am

The Spey casts John, but including roll casts.

Will, for me the descriptive "circle AND up" is to counter that corner cutting instinct most seem to have where they want to go straight into an overhead type BC once the set-up has been done - I'm talking sustained anchor casts here. Once we get that climbing circular motion into place you can begin to hone it into better shapes, but in my experience that instinct of wanting to go straight into a standard back-cast is strong. That clip demonstrates the circle and up perfectly. It seems to me that we can pause as we allow the anchor to touch and straighten, but if we aren't going up with our hands we have a level drop and point P back behind us somewhere. That's the UP bit that seems to me is not so prevalent in single hand teaching these days, not in my world anyway, and understanding it, and it's impact has rendered some big learning changes in my own casting. For many Europeans its a natural thing.

The bottom hand thing - ie pushing away did not work with this guy, and neither did the Scandi "stirring the pot" thing (we were using a Scandi head). Bloody tough but he's the kind of guy who will go away and think about it and next time round will make progress.

Using the "BIG STICK" seems to bring out the animal in some, where the reverse is needed.

Paul most 2 hander casting these days seems to be with heads, hence narrower arcs and higher stops. For me the difference between a true bottom hand cast and a top hand cast is chalk and cheese. The moment I start to focus on the bottom hand everything changes for the better.

RIO's long belly lines are brilliant.

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Will
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Re: Teaching Top hand v Bottom hand

#18

Post by Will » Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:38 am

Ah, OK, Circle AND THEN up!
Works for me! :-)
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Re: Teaching Top hand v Bottom hand

#19

Post by Morsie » Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:44 am

Will I also really like Robert Gillespie's "Climbing curve" as well. That's a wonderful descriptive, not sure if its actually his, but its where I've heard it.

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Re: Teaching Top hand v Bottom hand

#20

Post by Paul Arden » Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:09 pm

It’s equally confusing in the SH world as well. You can lift-flat-curve up, you can continually raise the rod and finally also you lift- sweep down- and then up. Mostly it depends on speed, control and length of the head when forming D/Vs. Dipping the rod will create a crashed anchor for beginners but if you want to use pace then this is how to do it. Deliberately raising the tip as the anchor is coming in, I think is important, it helps maintain tension for one thing, but if you have set the D loop up using 2 then you are already there. The continual raising rod tip is how Matty sets up with Switch/SS, so I don’t know if that’s common in Australia. I mostly do 3 and teach 1 to beginners.

I can’t seem to find an XLT so I’ll talk to Simon this week.

Thanks!
Paul
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