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Reducing bounce from backcast shoot

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Will
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Re: Reducing bounce from backcast shoot

#11

Post by Will » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:18 pm

Mmmm...

Is this 100ft from feet to fly?

If so then a pick up with 55ft of fly line out of the tip, with a 15ft leader and (say) a 15ft rod, takes you to 85ft, requiring a shoot of just 15ft. That shouldn’t be a major problem.

Are you sure the leader is kicking? It could be something else causing the leader to come through low, possibly loss of tension during turnover of the back cast, and/or the combination of a high back cast trajectory and the rod tip rising at the start of the forward cast. This last point is quite a common cause, so pay attention to the tip path at the start of the forward cast. (Thanks to Bernd for highlighting this a while back).

I don’t do much overhead casting with the DH, but when I have I’ve noticed that on my better efforts (a) I don’t wait for the back cast to straighten completely, and go what feels like a little early. If I wait for it to straighten I find the back of the head drops and I end up with the leader ticking the water. (b) I’m also focusing on maintaining maximum tension in the rod leg - speeding up the loop and minimising sag. For timing I find it better to concentrate on feeling for the point of maximum tension as the line unrolls (as opposed to watching the line). That’s the time to start the forward cast.

Assuming I’ve made a decent loop in the first place then this usually works.

With a 55-60ft length of fly line out of the tip, you shouldn’t feel like you need to add loads of power, or carry loads more line to hit 100ft from feet to fly.

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood the distances. Hope this helps. Interested to hear others ideas.

Will
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jarmo
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Re: Reducing bounce from backcast shoot

#12

Post by jarmo » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:50 pm

Will wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:18 pm
Is this 100ft from feet to fly?

If so then a pick up with 55ft of fly line out of the tip, with a 15ft leader and (say) a 15ft rod, takes you to 85ft, requiring a shoot of just 15ft. That shouldn’t be a major problem.
This is what I do now, and it works - except for ticking. Pick up 85’, shoot 20’.
Are you sure the leader is kicking? It could be something else causing the leader to come through low, possibly loss of tension during turnover of the back cast, and/or the combination of a high back cast trajectory and the rod tip rising at the start of the forward cast. This last point is quite a common cause, so pay attention to the tip path at the start of the forward cast. (Thanks to Bernd for highlighting this a while back).
Actually ticking is worse on backcast, so according to what you wrote above it might be loss of tension during turnover of the forward cast, and/or the combination of a high forward cast trajectory and the rod tip rising at the start of the backcast. Is the latter the same as a “dangling end?” I have been plagued by it when carrying a longer line in single-handed casting.

Thank you very much for the ideas, I will think about these for a couple of days and report back.

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Will
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Re: Reducing bounce from backcast shoot

#13

Post by Will » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:53 pm

I’ve just read James’s FP from today. Could’ve saved my fingers and just directed you to that! 😁

Yep, same dangling end (or BDB as James christens them).

Quite pleased that Tracy and James came to similar conclusions as me. Phew! 🙂
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"The only advice it is necessary to give the angler… is to avoid any approach to foppery, as trout have the most thorough contempt for a fop…”
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jarmo
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Re: Reducing bounce from backcast shoot

#14

Post by jarmo » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:04 pm

Will wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:53 pm
I’ve just read James’s FP from today. Could’ve saved my fingers and just directed you to that! 😁

Yep, same dangling end (or BDB as James christens them).
So it might still be the “sagging issue” I originally considered to be the cause. Now I am all confused - but much more optimistic. No need to add speed, just change timing. Thanks!

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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Reducing bounce from backcast shoot

#15

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:55 pm

What line are you using?

Sounds mostly like a timing issue, rather than a power...

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jarmo
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Re: Reducing bounce from backcast shoot

#16

Post by jarmo » Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:51 pm

Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:55 pm
Sounds mostly like a timing issue, rather than a power...
Very likely. James's FP ticked a lot of boxes. BTW, it was as if someone had just produced the article on demand.
Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:55 pm
What line are you using?
Now, RIO Long Head Spey, which took a loong time to get here. I (thought I) had overhead nailed to 85' carry already some time in May with SA XLT. Still, I appreciate the learning experience as long as I feel I am making progress.

I developed a theory overnight about what happened.
  1. XLT 85' carry was ok.
  2. Long Head Spey is heavier, has a different profile, and me being slow got it sagging, which resulted in ticking, probably due to dangling end.
  3. I responded by adding power - not changing timing. I still waited too long for the line to straighten, again producing sagging, and with so much power and a solid turnover I was able to introduce some kicking into the mix with the 15' leader. Result: a bit more ticking.
Next week, when I have the chance, I will see what happens when I change timing and decrease power.

I really appreciate all the tips you guys have given to fix this. :)

jarmo
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Re: Reducing bounce from backcast shoot

#17

Post by jarmo » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:49 am

Will wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:18 pm
I don’t do much overhead casting with the DH, but when I have I’ve noticed that on my better efforts (a) I don’t wait for the back cast to straighten completely, and go what feels like a little early. If I wait for it to straighten I find the back of the head drops and I end up with the leader ticking the water. (b) I’m also focusing on maintaining maximum tension in the rod leg - speeding up the loop and minimising sag. For timing I find it better to concentrate on feeling for the point of maximum tension as the line unrolls (as opposed to watching the line). That’s the time to start the forward cast.
This is an excellent piece of advice. With these lines, going for maximum tension instead of straight line visual feedback seems to work a whole lot better. Thanks a bunch!

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Will
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Re: Reducing bounce from backcast shoot

#18

Post by Will » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:15 am

Great stuff! Glad to be of help. 👍
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"The only advice it is necessary to give the angler… is to avoid any approach to foppery, as trout have the most thorough contempt for a fop…”
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Reducing bounce from backcast shoot

#19

Post by Lasse Karlsson » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:06 pm

Hi Jarmo

Something just struck me, the XLT has a head of 90 feet hasnt it? I've cut up my 7/8 so can't measure that one, but seem to recall a very long head. The long head spey has a much shorter head, and you'd be well into overhang trying to carry 85, and that does cause alot of trouble. On the other hand, just carrying the head and a foot of overhang on the long head spey has it go a mile, so no need to extend carry.

Cheers
Lasse
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***Bring Mark back!!!!!! ***

jarmo
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Re: Reducing bounce from backcast shoot

#20

Post by jarmo » Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:54 am

Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:06 pm
Something just struck me, the XLT has a head of 90 feet hasnt it?
Yes, IIRC the head length of the 9wt version is 95’.
Lasse Karlsson wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:06 pm
The long head spey has a much shorter head, and you'd be well into overhang trying to carry 85, and that does cause a lot of trouble. On the other hand, just carrying the head and a foot of overhang on the long head spey has it go a mile, so no need to extend carry.
That’s correct. However, since my numbers are meager values from reel to fly, for 85’ carry I need about 56’ of head outside tip. The Long Head Spey has a head of 66’, and at 56’ part of the back taper is outside rod tip. That will already shoot to 105’ with a thump.

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