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Pull the line first.

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Bianchetti Ivan
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Pull the line first.

#1

Post by Bianchetti Ivan » Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:01 pm

Goodmorning everyone.
I have this question that I can't answer. When I do the last throw forward, the rotation of the bead of the barrel should be at the same speed as the hand that pulls the line, but the hand that rotates the barrel is much faster. , I have not found any discussion on this issue, probably therefore it could be a great nonsense what I am going to say, but the tests done on the lawn leave me doubtful because it worked them, I say this that in reality is more a question than a statement, the longer the throw the sooner you have to pull the line! Why? I thought this, when you do something first you have to think it, send the message to the muscles, act, at a certain point the feeling that it is the right time to do it is not enough, you rotate the heel so quickly that the other hand arrives late , so if I pull the line before rotating I will find myself at the end with the same impulse. The question is, does it make sense? If it doesn't make sense, I am deceived by habit, do I think I will do one thing while I am doing another one? It is very difficult to understand, it would not be the first time that I launch mentrs I think I do something but it does not correspond to what happens. (sorry for the length)😢🙏

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Paul Arden
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Re: Pull the line first.

#2

Post by Paul Arden » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:10 pm

When I do the last throw forward, the rotation of the bead of the barrel should be at the same speed as the hand that pulls the line, but the hand that rotates the barrel is much faster.
Hi Ivan, there are some translation issues here. I’m not sure I understand!! Are you saying that your rod hand travels faster than your hauling hand? Hauling is of course the speed of separation of the hauling hand from the stripping guide of the rod.

Longer casts for me start with hauling later not sooner. I aim to try to really accelerate my haul as the rod butt points directly upwards or even later.

Instead of concentrating on trying to match haul to the rod (barrel!) I try to think about making the fastest haul and allowing the haul to control the cast (timing etc).

Maybe try writing your thoughts in other words and translate again. Then hopefully I can understand better!!

Thanks :) :)
Paul
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Paul Arden
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Re: Pull the line first.

#3

Post by Paul Arden » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:01 pm

What I would say, Ivan, is: I think you are trying to apply the haul to the rod. Better to apply the rod to the haul. Work out how to make your fastest haul - for me that comes from starting with a bent elbow, not crossing across the body with the hauling hand, and hauling directly away from the rod hand and as far as possible to a perfectly straight arm - this is the timing and the control of your cast. The faster you can haul the later in the stroke it must start because otherwise it finishes too soon.

Interestingly one side of the body is controlled by the opposite side of the brain. Therefore when you think haul and not rod, you actually use the opposite side of your brain! So you actually do think differently!

Cheers, Paul
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nicholasfmoore
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Re: Pull the line first.

#4

Post by nicholasfmoore » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:16 pm

Hi Paul,

I've just written a reply and the site logged me out, so now i have to start again :upside:

I think Bianchetti is on about two things, the time to apply the haul, and the rod hand, and maybe the confusion is when to haul. Perhaps he is wondering why he is peaking out on his haul speed before the max tip speed is reached?

Bianchetti, try using the triangle method with about 20' of line. Trap the line underneath your rod hand and make some nice tight loops. Every time you 'stop' the rod, say "HAUL". Do this on your back and forward cast a few times. When you are ready to start the back cast for example, take your line in your line hand and concentrate on keeping your thumbs together. Match your rod hand speed with your line hand. The point where you shouted "HAUL" is the point where you should pull the line, you then feed the line at the same speed as the unrolling loop. Think of it as a pull....PUUUUUUSH" you take the line fast at the 'stop' and give it back slowly on the feed. Another words, haul as you rotate at the end of the stroke.

Theres quite a lot of confusion as to when you haul, some people teach to haul when you start the stroke, some people teach around the middle and some teach at the end. It's possible to start too late, but most commonly people start too early. To add more to that, it's not really a point of where you start the haul, it's more to do with where you peak out on the hauling speed, but of course where you start is relevant to that.

i think you will do well if you remember to haul as late as possible. Wait, that's not late enough, even later than you are thinking. Think "wait wait wait wait...HAUL!"

Don't try harder with the rod hand, think about the haul controlling the speed, another words, minimum force with the rod hand and lighting fast hauls, as Paul mentions. :cool:

All the best

Nick
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

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Paul Arden
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Re: Pull the line first.

#5

Post by Paul Arden » Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:16 pm

Good advice Nick! That’s how I teach it too.

It’s possible that Ivan is asking a much more technical question. There is some good (and surprising) stuff here on hauling in the physics forum.

Lasse’s slow haul viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1992&start=20#p31571
And Paul’s much faster one viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1992&start=30#p31600

There is also an excellent study by the Swedes. I can’t remember if this was posted? I’ll ask Stefan.

Cheers, Paul
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gordonjudd
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Re: Pull the line first.

#6

Post by gordonjudd » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:00 pm

And Paul’s much faster one
Paul,
I get the joke, but I was surprised to find that your peak haul speed on the forward cast was closer to MAV while Lasse's was closer to RSP1. Thus the timing of the peak of the haul speed (and/or peak acceleration) may be quite forgiving.

As Bernd explained the timing of the peak haul speed on the back cast will be dominated by rod rotation and thus will be close to MAV for most casters.
I can’t remember if this was posted? I’ll ask Stefan.
The way they used their accelerators to measure speed resulted in their haul speed being the difference in hand speeds rather than the derivative of the distance between the first stripper guide and the haul hand. That could have a big effect on the actual haul timing (especially on the backcast).

Gordy

nicholasfmoore
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Re: Pull the line first.

#7

Post by nicholasfmoore » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:05 pm

Hi all,

Thank's Paul, would you agree with my statements? I know it's different for competition, but fishing is a bit different isn't it, and different people teach different things. :cool:

Incidentally, how much line do you typically teach with? Also, do you say to the student, short cast short haul, long cast long haul, and get them to extend their line hand travel as the line gets longer? I'm of the opinion that the speed is way more important than how far your line hand travels, for shorter casts at least, not horizon breakers like yours :cool:

After reading it again i think you are right, and he would like an in depth scientific explanation :sorcerer: maybe he could make a video and post it (if he's comfortable with this of course). However, i still don't understand what he's asking.

All the best

Nick
Nick M

"Memento Piscantur Saepe" :upside:

Bianchetti Ivan
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Re: Pull the line first.

#8

Post by Bianchetti Ivan » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:53 pm

I speak of the launch in front, not the one behind the back.

stesiik
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Re: Pull the line first.

#9

Post by stesiik » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:11 am

Hi all!

We got the data on how a few of the best casters here used to to do the haul a few years ago. Ulrik shot it with high speed 3d cameras combined with motion sensors in the best lab in Sweden. .

Fuck. You can not imagine how much data such an event renders. Terabytes.

The data is not fully processed yet. It was and still is complex. I hope this will eventually become something scientifically solid but it is not yet. So everything below is good guessing at best.

We do see that you actually can add speed to the cast with the haul. Grunde et al was right.

It looks like around 15% + in efficiency (distance achived) is possible, but any increase seems to be very dependent on a when you pull. The idea of hauling late looks sound so far.

We can see that the longest casts (highest efficiency) where achived by the casters who managed to get the haul (line hand speed) to max out after the max tip speed.

There is lag in a flexible lever (rod). The longest cast where made by the casters who had the best (smoothest) transition from adding speed with the lever,(rod) into adding speed with the line hand (haul).

I have only seen a few curves and some data from this work yet. But what I have seen so far is that late is good, late and fast is even better. The early bird does not get the worm here.


Best regards
Stefan
I

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Graeme H
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Re: Pull the line first.

#10

Post by Graeme H » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:26 am

Thanks for sharing that Stefan. That's really interesting.

Cheers,
Graeme
FFi CCI

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