Casting flys and yarn indicator in tandem over large distance

[Phil31]

Hi Guys,

Quick intro. I'm new to the board. My name is Phil. I'm based in Turangi, New Zealand. Home of the Tongariro River for those who know the area.

One of the main rivers i fish is commonly upstream nymphed. Typical set up being a rather large yarn indicator, a rather heavy tungsten bomb (3.5mm bead with one and a half lead wraps on a size 10 or 12. And another lightly weighted or unweighted nymph. As you can imagine this is alot to cast.

Usually over a smaller distance, I can cast fairly tight loops without any issues. However when I start fishing larger distances say 60-80 feet I can often end up with tangles. Often as a result of the flies hitting the indicator. This usually occurs on the forward cast shoot/delivery. The only way to get around this is to throw a more open loop on my cast. As im not used to throwing open loops intentionally this can result in poor tracking which creates issuess too.

Question being does anyone have any experince, suggestions or pointers that you can share when it comes to throwing such weight over distance. Also part of the issue i believe is caused by the indicators lack of aerodynamics causes it to air surf in an upwards motion while the heavy bomb is pulling down creating the tangle.

[Paul Arden]

Hey Phil! Sorry for the delay - I was offline in the jungle. This is a really great topic. I’ll have a go at answering tomorrow.

You must know Clint Green Many years ago I used to start my NZ trips staying at Bellbird Lodge.

Cheers, Paul

PS welcome to the Board!

[Paul Arden]

I thought it worth an FP. Problem is I’m on the lake and limited with time. So finding the links might be a challenge

https://www.sexyloops.com/index.php/ps/ ... avy-nymphs

Cheers, Paul

[Phil31]

This is great thanks Paul. I have been doing a lot of the TRC lately.

One thing I have thought since this post that may contribute to issues when casting heavy nymphs over distance is that the weight of the flies contribute to a far greater rod bend meaning you need a much wider casting arc than if you were casting weightless flies the same distance. Would you agree?

And also with this taken into account, taking some aggression out of your hauling compensate is a good idea?

I feel that hauling to a straight arm with my 10ft 7 weight and 4mm tungsten beads plus lead wraps would create such bend that would require an unreasonably large casting arc (far beyond usual) which would then create tracking issues because your arc is unusually large.

Am I thinking along the right lines here?

[Paul Arden]

Hi Phil, if it’s Roll cast then I don’t think that the weight of the flies will make a difference, since they are in the water during the casting stroke. Overhead maybe - certainly I have some very heavy streamers that I sometimes use on relatively soft rods and I can feel it.

Haul adding load, I think that’s probably a bit of a red herring. That’s a topic in itself! Being smooth I think is critical and probably why less aggressive hauls are working better.

What line are you using? 7 is definitely on the light side for this I think.

Cheers, Paul

[Carol]

I heard a great tip by a guide in Montana, Peter Bring, for preventing the trailing fly from tangling with the point fly. Now he was talking about a hopper-dropper rig, but perhaps it makes some sense for two nymphs. I've not tried it yet because I've not fished hoppers yet this year, and the size nymphs I fish are typically #16-20, so it's not an issue. But it may be worth pondering.

When casting, the trailing fly in a hopper-dropper rig often will hinge (assuming tandem rig) and result in a closed loop. To help solve this, when tying on the trailing fly to the bend in the point fly, first tie on a few inches of heavier tippet, then tie on the size tippet you need for the trailing fly. It supposedly helps lessen the hinging effect and helps keep the loop open.

For what it's worth.

[nicholasfmoore]

Hi Phil,

A very warm welcome to you! Sounds like you are in a stunning area, i'm very jealous.

The FP is excellent btw, mate. I'd probably recommend a heavier line and a shorter leader to turn that lot over.

However when I start fishing larger distances say 60-80 feet I can often end up with tangles. Often as a result of the flies hitting the indicator. This usually occurs on the forward cast shoot/delivery.

Without seeing you cast and the rig it is very hard to say, but it could be that you are hitting the cast during the translation phase of the forward cast, and considering you said this is on your delivery shot, this would make sense, it could be improper application of force during the translation phase of the delivery stroke which would = tail/tangle. I would suggest just 'letting the delivery cast go' don't try and throw any harder.

Haul adding load, I think that’s probably a bit of a red herring. That’s a topic in itself!

That's at least a 20 pager

Out of interest, Phil, when are you hauling? You want to reach max haul speed as your rod tip reaches RSP, and this means starting the haul late (usually). A good reference point is to start the haul after the perpendicular (that's Pauls word btw) it's only a start, and you may find that starting the haul later will give you better results. Of course you can start too late, but it's more common for it to start too early. It's more to do with where you peak out with your haul speed, but of course where you start is relevant to that.

All the best!

[Carol]

Nick, are you going to start the 20 pager?

[nicholasfmoore]

Nick, are you going to start the 20 pager?

Haha! Actually i think one has been started

All the best

[Paul Arden]

That’s an interesting tip there Carol. Makes sense particularly if you are using fine tippet. Thanks! Paul