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Question about tails

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Paul Arden
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Question about tails

#1

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi chaps,

I was having an interesting conversation with Bernd today about inverted loops and the underhand/pendulum cast. Some of the tip paths he was drawing was surprising.

So it’s a starry night and good for the lumiline. And surprisingly he’s almost right. If you draw a figure of 8 you can throw an inverted loop.

Which leads to the question why doesn’t this result in an inverted tail? It’s obviously because of gravity but can someone expand on this answer please? It might be useful when we turn the tail the right way up again.

Thanks,
Paul
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Lasse Karlsson
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Re: Question about tails

#2

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

A tail comes from a abrupt or uneven application of force.. Drawing a smooth line with the rodtip is a even one...
Hang upside down and throw a tail, it will happen, but be less spectacular. Throwing a tail in a upside down loop done normally, is a once in a bliue moon thing, but I believe you can do it, if you try hard enough mate :-)

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Lasse
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Graeme H
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Re: Question about tails

#3

Post by Graeme H »

It's easy enough to throw inverted loops, but I do so with a (mainly) horizontal rod plane.

If a tail results from an incorrectly shortened chord length (i.e. the tip comes too close to the grip at the wrong time) then "throwing a tail" using an horizontal rod results in a tracking error rather than a tailing loop.

To throw a tail in an inverted loop, we would need to lift the rod tip during the cast and lower it again before loop formation. It's possible, but very difficult with a horizontal rod plane. Of course, if you're making the inverted loop by having the rod pointing down during the cast, the normal mechanism would apply (shortening the chord length at the wrong time).

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Graeme
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Paul Arden
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Re: Question about tails

#4

Post by Paul Arden »

Ok let me see if I can better explain what I mean :)

Using a pendulum loop slung underneath the rod tip we have an inverted loop. Now classic tip path is a saucer or J shape on its side.

Bernd said he was using an S shape tip path (my words). That’s actually a classic tail path, but upside down.

I agree tails can happen in the horizontal plane but gravity appears to remove an inverted tail.

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Graeme H
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Re: Question about tails

#5

Post by Graeme H »

I think I know what you're talking about Paul, but why would gravity preferentially remove the hump from the fly leg (Point C) and not also act on the rest of the fly leg? (Points A & B). That would be like saying the tail in a normal cast can be removed by gravity acting on the corresponding points A & B.


IMG_5372.jpg
IMG_5372.jpg (52.1 KiB) Viewed 3331 times


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Graeme
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Graeme H
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Re: Question about tails

#6

Post by Graeme H »

Another way to think of the inverted loop is to think about the "backcast" on a dynamic roll cast. It is a wide inverted loop.

A crashed anchor is the result of a tail thrown in that loop, resulting from the rod tip being lowered while forming the D-loop.

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Graeme
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Bernd Ziesche
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Re: Question about tails

#7

Post by Bernd Ziesche »

Hi Paul,
first of all listening to the Gebetsroither style experts I often was told, that one would throw less tailing loops when having the line passing below the tip in the bc and above the tip in the fc. I have used that style a fair amount of time (almost 10 years) long ago. I would not disagree with that statement.
If in that style one shapes an inverted loop as Hans Gebetsroither did on a short line or a crossed loop for the final turn over as todays experts mostly do for much longer carries probably has to be taken into accout as well in regard of your question.
I am wondering how the relationship between line length (carry) and the risk of tailings is in general. Not sure this was ever discussed?
Obviously longer carries mean more rod bend = more potential for bigger waves in the fly-leg.
You said you can't throw an inverted loop over any longer carries. Graeme showed this to be possible on 70 feet by slomo and I am sure, I too can do that.
To me it doesn't matter, what direction a wave in the fly-leg might have. A wave in the fly-leg done by a dip in tip path in rod bending plane is a tailing loop (not a tracking issue) to me.
Logically thinking it should be possible for an inverted loop as well. Only it (the wave) then would peak opposite direction of the rod-leg.
We did learn, that we cannot pull out such a wave, but "pull the rest of the line thru it". Also I doubt gravity would in any way kill or help to avoid such a wave for the inverted loop.
Oh, and just to make sure we are all on the same page, an inverted or upside down loop for me is:
A) distance fly-leg to water, B) distance rod-leg to water
A) is shorter than B).
Lasse,
I am expecting no less from you but presenting a nice tailing in an inverted loop in front of a blue wall. Make sure to give some extra line length for Paul. ;)
Cheers
Bernd
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Re: Question about tails

#8

Post by Bernd Ziesche »

Tailing inverted loop
Tailing inverted loop
How about this, Graeme?
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Graeme H
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Re: Question about tails

#9

Post by Graeme H »

I would not call that a tail Bernd, but I can see why it might be considered so.

For me, a tail is a cast in any plane where the fly leg approaches the rod leg and may cross it, depending on severity of the tail. It becomes a problem when it causes a tangle or knot.

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Graeme
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Re: Question about tails

#10

Post by Bernd Ziesche »

Graeme H wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:53 am IMG_5372.jpg
So what tip path made this happen?
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