Understanding trout carbon rods

[ska1911]

Hi!
As a rodbuilder i found this article really interesting. Think it could be of interest for some of you too and provide some interesting points to discuss...

https://www.flyfishing.co.uk/threads/un ... ds.618494/

Cheers
Stefan

[Paul Arden]

That’s a well written and constructive post, which I’ve read before! I’ve always found the mid-market priced rods to be rather interesting. Many are surprised by the high price of rods when the blanks are rolled in EU/US/NZ. But it’s the mid-price rods out of Korea that have the highest profits/margins.

We are going back in time here but when I worked for Guide FFing in the UK, I knew Redington when Jim Murphy ran it. So this is 25 years ago. There were two models, the Redstart and the Redington FSF. The Redstart cost $15 landed, the FSF $17.50. Retail was $100 and $245 (in the UK it was the same but GBP). That’s a pretty big jump for $2.50!!!

The problem with dealing with China is that your designs end up available to everyone. I’ve been asked about half a dozen times now, to assess rods from samples and often they even leave the outsourcing brand name on the rods. Imagine putting all that work in (of course most don’t) only for someone else to have access to it. I’m quite sure that’s why a lot of rods feel the same between different brands - they are the same!!!

As I was saying recently in a PM, FFing in China is interesting. I visited a group of FFers in Harbin a few years back. They all had expensive Western rods If I could make a $5000 HT they would buy it!!

Cheers, Paul

[Tangled]

Had to do something in lockdown :-)

[Bendix]

Hi Paul

You are quite right! Often the mid price rods made in China are the same!

There is a recent case, where 3 different Scandinavian brands, sold “different” rods, that was in fact built on the same blank, in the same Chinese factory. The 3 “different” rods cost roughly the same to the consumer, and the only difference between the 3 rods, was the color of the blank, the handle and reel seat, and off course the name (brand) printed above the handle… Other than that, the rods where exactly the same!

I definitely think this happens more often, than anyone care to admit!

/Bendix

[Lasse Karlsson]

Would be very interesting to at some point get some names and fact on those rumours, they seem to pop up every few years

Cheers
Lasse

[Bendix]

Hi Lasse

The rods I’m mentioning, is the Guideline Elevation series, the Vision Onki series, and the Loop Q series.

I was told this from a person within the industry (who worked for one of the mentioned brands) but I won’t mention his name, as I promised not to.

Hope this will clarify some things…

/Bendix

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

This is not only a "China" thing, although I expect it is much more common there.

When I worked for a big box store (I probably should not mention the name?)... I had the opportunity to cast all the different rods when customers wanted to test drive different models.

The store carried top name rods and store brand rods. One year, one of the store brand rods had a big label stating, "Made in USA", and even mentioned which US State. Funny thing was, one of the top brand rods was well known to be made in that State. And if you cast or compared a certain "made in US" store rod to a certain mid-level top rod made in that particular state, it was almost impossible to tell them apart... other than by rod color.

As luck would have it, there happened to be a trade show at a nearby location, and the rod designer for that particular top brand was on hand. So, I asked him about the curious similarity. His response was quite political... as in, "I cannot confirm nor deny"...

There was only a slight difference in cost between the two rods... the store brand being slightly less... but there was a big difference in warranty... the top brand being significantly longer. It was tough to not spill the beans when customers seemed to be interested in the store brand.

Personally, I kinda liked the rods. So when the store brand was eventually discontinued, and discounted - I picked up a few since I got an additional employee discount. Relatively speaking I hardly paid anything for some weird colored top brand rods. However, when I broke one I had no replacement. The other models I still use occasionally to this day.

[Lasse Karlsson]

Hi Lasse

The rods I’m mentioning, is the Guideline Elevation series, the Vision Onki series, and the Loop Q series.

I was told this from a person within the industry (who worked for one of the mentioned brands) but I won’t mention his name, as I promised not to.

Hope this will clarify some things…

/Bendix

Hi Bendix

Interesting, what do you think account for the quite big differences in specs between those series?
I'm not saying it can't be true, they probably are made at the same factory in China, I know where one of the brands are made and I wouldn't be surprised that the other two are made in the same factory, there aren't that many after all
But there is quite a difference on paper between them, guess there's something to try on the next fair, I,'ll bring three of the same lines for sure now

Cheers
Lasse

[Tangled]

Along similar lines I heard that one well known English branded rod series was picked off the Korean shelf by email exchange then described as designed by them. This was also by someone in a position to know. It's interesting to ponder how the industry is swinging from design and build, through design and outsource to purchase and brand.

Certainly the billion dollar Wall Street asset management companies like Sycamore Partners that own many of our major brands are interested in brand marketing more than design and manufacture. The last Orvis (still a private company) accounts I saw was 2018, they spent $108m on marketing - 30% of their total costs. The costs of the actual rod is incidental.

As many of the brands use the same Korean factory, it's inevitable that buyers are going to pick the same blanks. Particularly as the consumers are so damn gullible - what are technically called "uneducated buyers" - and so many of the brands are owned by the same conglomerate.

[Bendix]

@Lasse

I just realized, that I had misspelled the Guideline rod. The rod I’m thinking about, is actually the Elevate, and not the Elevation… My mistake, sorry…

I just googled the specs of the mentioned rods (apart from the Elevate, which I couldn’t find, as It’s discontinued), and the way I see it, the only difference in the specs, is the listed weight of the rods? And this difference in weight, is probably down to the chosen fittings of the rods…

/Bendix