Single handed distance roll casting

[Bernd Ziesche]

He has a thumb on top grip and pushes against the pencil with the thumb using counter pressure of the fingers against the pencil. If you use enough force the pencil will break. Extreme but illustrative. However, using the fingers to exert force is very different from using the wrist to exert force. Fingers closing around the rod handle does not inhibit transmission from body to rod.

Hi John,
I gave it a try.
A) Thumb on top, wrist inactive, forearm movement against pencil in nearly vertical position against my wall.
B) V grip, wrist movement, pencil in same initial position.
Both pencils broke, but A) was very tough, while B) was much more easy.
You owe me 2 pencils next time we meet, mate.
I guess that demonstration was done for the foreward cast, right? But in my book the back cast in 5MED is more important. Here the difference gets even bigger for me. Inactive wrist and I run out of shoulder and ellbow flex too soon to break a pencil against a wall in a typical close to RSP1 angle. Using V grip and wrist and it's an easy break. Huge difference.
I find these analogies always depend on so many factors and details, making it hard to match for fly casting.
In the WC I saw brilliant casters for all different grips. I couldnt say which was used most, but would think for V in the back cast and V to thumb on top in the fc. Something in between was common, too.
Regards
Bernd

[Paul Arden]

You can have an inactive wrist with V grip Bernd too. It’s not the wrist that makes it happen on the backcast; rather it’s the thumb on top/underneath that inhibits the elbow straightening for most normal jointed people. Lefty was correct with his thumb out teaching.

For me in the WCs it’s the little things that separate us. I don’t think it’s the best place to analyse techniques however but the training beforehand is.

Cheers, Paul

[John Waters]

He has a thumb on top grip and pushes against the pencil with the thumb using counter pressure of the fingers against the pencil. If you use enough force the pencil will break. Extreme but illustrative. However, using the fingers to exert force is very different from using the wrist to exert force. Fingers closing around the rod handle does not inhibit transmission from body to rod.

Hi John,
I gave it a try.
A) Thumb on top, wrist inactive, forearm movement against pencil in nearly vertical position against my wall.
B) V grip, wrist movement, pencil in same initial position.
Both pencils broke, but A) was very tough, while B) was much more easy.
You owe me 2 pencils next time we meet, mate.
I guess that demonstration was done for the foreward cast, right? But in my book the back cast in 5MED is more important. Here the difference gets even bigger for me. Inactive wrist and I run out of shoulder and ellbow flex too soon to break a pencil against a wall in a typical close to RSP1 angle. Using V grip and wrist and it's an easy break. Huge difference.
I find these analogies always depend on so many factors and details, making it hard to match for fly casting.
In the WC I saw brilliant casters for all different grips. I couldnt say which was used most, but would think for V in the back cast and V to thumb on top in the fc. Something in between was common, too.
Regards
Bernd

Will do Bernd. From memory it was done on the forward cast. I don't think I dreamed it, maybe I did. I like the thumb in the centre of the corks for accuracy because it aids my front cast turnover and I feel more comfortable on the backcast supporting the rod with thumb than I do with both thumb and index finger. We are at cross purposes here, I never use my thumb in the centre of the corks for other than accuracy (targets up to 55 feet). For distance I use the knuckle on top grip, because it is best for extension and flexion. I want the opposite for short line, hence the different thumb position.
Wrist extension and flexion is the objective of the distance grip and I suggest that is the standard in FF and ICSF World Championships for the reasons I've stated earlier, whereas for short line stuff like in the FF Trout Accuracy, I believe the wrist movement tends more to adduction and abduction because of the different patterning for short line. My casting project will require many hours in a movement lab in the next 3 years, I'm looking forward to getting some data.

My friend Heinz Maire-Hengse is visiting me from Germany for three weeks for some casting and fishing in March. I think he is one of the most fluid fly distance casters I have ever seen. It will be interesting do a 3D analysis of his movement structure.

John

[jarmo]

Hi Jarmo,
You may have a look into this video:



It shows very well, that unless you speed up by main rotation, you lift line, yes, but don't create the speed for making the back cast.
Same you see in my analyses of that roll cast shown by Thomas Ellerbrock. First part no rod bend comes in. Consequently the line hangs down.

Yes, that makes sense, but was not really what I was talking about. However, one of your other posts addresses my concern: the way to start the cast.

There are 4 ways to start the rod movement:
1. Rotation and translation
2. Translation only
1. and 2. we can either start very slow (like Simon recommends in the upper vid) or by a serious rate of acceleration straight away.
According to my analyses,
If we start like 1. (immediate rotation), but in very slow speed, the tip rises. That (the rising tip) perfectly keeps out slack in the lower part of the D. You see this in the cast I analysed in post #150 (second frame shows how rod tip rises, while there is no slack in the D).
If we start like 2. (translation first), but in slow speed, the line will just keep hanging down the tip. Thus we add little slack into the lower D. By translating the rod forward we move the tip forward and the now additional line in the D has to go somewhere.
If we start like 1. (immediate rotation), but with a serious speed up straight away, trajectory of the live line (upper part in the D) will significantly point upwards. Simon marks this, when showing the (what he calls) typical beginner's fault in the upper video. Watch the immense upward trajectory of the line.
If we start like 2. (translation first), but with a serious speed up (still smooth enough of course) straight away, then we position live line behind the tip prior rotation. The more downwards we move the rod hand during the translational path, the more horizontal direction this part of life line will get. In an ideal cast we imo need as much horizontal directed live line behind the tip prior rotation as possible. Because only then we get the fly-leg unrolling nicely under the trees! This way the loop looks more similiar to the loop in a proper over head cast.

So, can we unroll the line by starting slow? Yes.
Can we unroll the line by starting straight with rotation? Yes.
But, if we want the upper leg to get alive and in a closer to horizontal path, we need speed and downwarded forward direction for our tip prior rotation.

While this makes sense, what is not accounted for, in my opinion, is the amount of movement you can create with these moves. Translation is a scarce resource, while a huge amount of tip movement can be created by rotation. IMHO, translation should be reserved to take place at the point where it is most beneficial, and I do not know where this is. In particular, I currently doubt whether translation is most beneficial at the very start, since then some of it is “wasted” on removing slack and creating tension.

I like Robert Gillespie’s “mostly positional change followed by mostly angular change.” The details of this split are still fuzzy to me.

[RSalar]

Interesting discussion. Coming full circle and back to Mac Brown and the FFI Zoom call where he described the first move (the loading move) as dropping the elbow and pulling down by rotating the shoulder. While waiting for the FFI to release the video, I've been looking for a description -- I finally found a good one. It was on his website (no wonder I couldn't find it). Interestingly he also discusses the wrist flip (link at the end):

"Loading Move with Pulling the Rod Butt Straight Versus Forced Turnover?

"Many will attempt to perform the static roll cast with more of a pushing stroke and rotate everything right at the end of the stroke (\\\\\\\\\|/). This is commonplace today for many fly casters to hit the cast at the end of the stroke. Many fly flingers think of pushing the rod straight during the loading move equates to a late rotation. This dilemma creates wasted residual energy created in waves traveling down the rod leg. It also disregards keeping the traveling loop legs non-parallel (wasted energy as well). The result is often the line lands in the middle (like the St. Louis arch upside down). Al Buhr often refers to this as the “forced turnover” crowd. That is a great description of it overall! In discussions, we often refer to the “forced turnover” crowd as the “flat Earth” thinkers. Pulling is often referred to as delayed rotation which it is not! In fact, typically pushers late rotate all at once towards the completion of the roll cast. This is exactly the main problem that becomes a hindrance to making it appear easy! Lunging forward more than downward is also a dead giveaway of forcing the turnover. The concepts of pulling and pushing can be traced to the Jimmy Green Fenwick schools in the 1970s."

https://macbrownflyfish.com/fly-casting ... y-fishing/

Cheers,

Ron

PS: Vince -- roll casting on ice doesn't work -- didn't think it would but I tried it on your advice anyway -- it's way more slippery than grass! I think an artificial anchor is the best solution for slippery surfaces. Although I was told that knotting loops in the leader or using big bulky flies work to anchor the line on grass.

[RSalar]

Engineers and physicist still disagree on tails too! I think the major breakthrough has been a wider access to video cameras. Christ when Sexyloops started the common belief was that hauling loaded the rod and we stopped the haul at butt stop with a fully bent rod. Now we know that usually causes a tail. But when I first put up a frame by frame sequence of that I was accused of doing it wrong

Cheers, Paul

Hi Paul,

Would you mind posting a link to the frame by frame sequence and any related discussions?

Thanks,

Ron

[RSalar]

Hi Ron,

Sports science will always challenge sporting norms because it measures and compares. Does the average angler give a rat's? Definitely not. If history is any guide, not much will change. As for the future, at least we'll be able to both identify what we are not taking advantage of and measure the opportunity foregone

Let the linguists focus on translation,

John

HI John,

I actually like the fact that we don't know everything and even the experts can be wrong! How boring would life be if all the facts were known about everything. And what is an expert anyway? What collage degree do you need to have? What life experiences do you have to have had? What letters have to follow your name? When do you get to that exalted place that when you talk, everyone listens, and no one dares question you?

I think that there are too many experts who have made certain statements in books or articles and then they find out that they were wrong but refuse to admit it! To my way of thinking, any scientist who will not admit when he is wrong, is not a good scientist -- and maybe not even a scientist!

Happy New Year!

Ron

[VGB]

PS: Vince -- roll casting on ice doesn't work -- didn't think it would but I tried it on your advice anyway -- it's way more slippery than grass! I think an artificial anchor is the best solution for slippery surfaces. Although I was told that knotting loops in the leader or using big bulky flies work to anchor the line on grass.

Hi Ron

It most certainly does work in ice and many of our Nordic brethren practice the whole range of Spey casting on snow and ice. Sekhar, who has hosted some of the recent zoom calls has also recreated Aitor’s anchor slipping experiment on ice, I believe he has it on video somewhere, maybe he will share it with you. Also you can roll cast on grass or ice without artificial aids, it does expose a tendency to hit the cast too hard, too early.

\\\\\\\\\|/ or even separating the cast into pushing and pulling is quite a simplistic view of the cast. The sweep up and drop described by Bernd brings in an element of rotation of the rod tip, sufficient to result in a “poke” even if you don’t continue with the stroke. I’ll be making it a chunk in my roll cast lesson in future.

Regards

Vince

PS I don’t have a collage degree, I never even went to art school

[Bernd Ziesche]

I've heard the old casting statement "I can move my wrist faster than the elbow" for decades to justify the role of the wrist in casting. I used to believe it, but no longer. It was a foundational tenet to my casting technique for decades. How silly was I? The wrist should only be used to transmit energy from the body to the rod! That is the reason the casting wrist needs to be relaxed because tension inhibits that transmission. If you cast only with the wrist, with no contribution from other segments, then yes; "a muscle powered wrist flip" needs to be employed if you are going to move the rod tip.

Hi John,
Here is another fine video of a distance casting expert:

"You cannot move your forearm at the same speed as your wrist." (minute 2:40)
I may not agree with every little detail, but I very much like how this expert explained the whole process. And to answer your question, he wasn't (nor is he) silly at all!

When you say "the wrist should only be used to transmit energy from the body to the rod", that yet confuses me a bit. I think we can (and may want to) use the wrist to position the main rotation further towards the end of the longest possible stroke when running out of arm. Also we can use the wrist to add additional speed on top of what we already have coming from all else.

I am not trying to say, that adding huge force by a strong wrist based rotation as seen in Bernt's cast and fur sure different to what Tor does, is the only or the best style. The best style may always depend on wind conditions, the physical abilities of each caster, as well as how good one masters whatever style. And mastering whatever rod stiffness is yet another point to be taken into account.

For sure I believe that I saw the most pointy looking loops by those positioning an immense wrist based rotation at the very end of a very long stroke.
Of course speed is another factor and 110Kg behind a cast may always beat 60Kg behind it in terms of max force input. Thus the most pointy looking loop may not go furthest always.

I agree with both you and Paul about the difference between the fc and bc. However how do you guys see the difference (bc/fc) in the role of the wrist in Bernt's style?

I would like to hear Bart de Zwan and what he sais about having changed his style and the role of his wrist in that change. Bart?
Cheers
Bernd

[bartdezwaan]

Hi there.
I did not follow the complete discussion, but wanted to reply on Bernd’s question.
It is no more than how things happen in my head.

When learning the 170 style, the wrist was an important part. I always believed the wrist was the join with which you can generate the fastest rotation.
When first trying to cast 170, I first just adjusted my arc without much other adjustments. This went nowhere.
Delaying rotation and finishing with a fast snap of the wrist was the way to go.

My dad sometimes laughed at some of the casting of spinfishers. They where using there whole body to cast the light spinner. Het showed me how effective it can be with just a flick of the wrist. I think fly casting is less different than some people think.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers, Bart