Moderators: Paul Arden, Bernd Ziesche, Lasse Karlsson
In the Winkelman book, I like the explanation that an external cue are able to encourage the learning of complex movements without the aid of complex knowledge. I think the resultant reduction in cognitive workload of not having to remember a long set of instructions that will be processed in serial fashion is critical to retention and producing smooth movement.
It’s not only yours but the students Bernd. If you tell them something is impossible, they will believe you and not even attempt the taskBernd Ziesche wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:41 pm It's about my mind set as well though.
How often have I heard "You cant teach hauling to a beginner." Huge limit for an instructor!
Hi Vince,VGB wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:42 amIt’s not only yours but the students Bernd. If you tell them something is impossible, they will believe you and not even attempt the taskBernd Ziesche wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:41 pm It's about my mind set as well though.
How often have I heard "You cant teach hauling to a beginner." Huge limit for an instructor!
Regards
Vince
Student's almost only chance is in me believing in it to be possible for him first. Otherwise nearly no chance for him.To me it always felt like setting levels kind of limits me in what to teach. And if I think of something maybe too difficult yet... my student has no chance. I want as few limits in my look as possible. It's about my mind set as well though.
I often heard this fairytale, especially from commercial instructors. I've never paid for any lesson.Bernd Ziesche wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:00 pm Hi Vince,
fair question. I don't know what level of fly casting qualifies "a very fine caster" for you. For me that would be a fly caster who can shape all loops from open to pretty tight in a particular smooth way. He would have great control of loop shape, line speed and trajectory. He would master all this both with and without hauling. He could hit serious distance as properly control short distance presentations. He would have a significant range of casts available.
In my experience I haven't seen this level ever in self educated casters, who didn't take lessons.
Hi Torsten,Torsten wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:27 am Hi,
I often heard this fairytale, especially from commercial instructors. I've never paid for any lesson.Bernd Ziesche wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:00 pm In my experience I haven't seen this level ever in self educated casters, who didn't take lessons.
I never paid or received money for sex, it doesn’t make me a virgin or prostitute
But it’s also well worth rereading the entire answer to my question…we have to recognize that humans are movement generalists - we can run, swim, and climb, but we are not the best runners, swimmers, and climbers in the animal kingdom. As such, the body is really good at getting good enough. Learning to ride a bike is not the same as becoming an elite BMXer. Thus, instruction is often what is needed to go from “good to better.”
When studying an athlete’s movement, many of us have what I call an “ideal movement silhouette filter” that we place between the athlete and ourselves. Yet we also talk about athlete self-organisation through constraints. Sometimes it’s just a hell of a lot easier and quicker to say to an athlete “try this”. Are the results for self-organisation so compelling that this is always a better way?
There is a lot in there.This is certainly a hot topic in motor learning. At the end of the day, we are not puppet masters pulling the strings, so it is all self-organization at a basic level. The question is whether the athlete is learning to self-organize under learning conditions that represent the skill in real life - I call this the National Geographic filter - is this how it is done in the wild. Now, people argue that the more the athlete can “figure it out or solve it” on their own the better. The rationale here is simple, if you learn without understanding how you learned (i.e., not being exposed to detailed - step-by-step - instruction) then you are less likely to over-analyze and succumb to paralysis x analysis. This is why we say “it is like riding a bike” when it comes to moments or behaviors that are engrained at a physical opposed to conceptual level. With all this said, we have to recognize that humans are movement generalists - we can run, swim, and climb, but we are not the best runners, swimmers, and climbers in the animal kingdom. As such, the body is really good at getting good enough. Learning to ride a bike is not the same as becoming an elite BMXer. Thus, instruction is often what is needed to go from “good to better.” However, the health warning here is what led to the debate on whether “to coach or not to coach.” If we over-coach with the wrong information, even with the best of intentions, we can lead the athlete to create a hyper-intellectual or conceptual understanding of the movement that is as physically strong or embedded in their sense of performing it. This is best seen when the athlete says, “I know what to do, I just don’t know how to do it.” This is why having a methodology for effective cue and analogy creation is essential. This methodology, built on the motor learning area of attentional focus, helps the coach understand how to “educate the students attention” in a way that harmonizes with “natural” self-organization, rather distracting from it. In short, it is about better cueing and better constraints not cues vs. constraints.
1. What it is that we're trying to achieve (to efficiently use a rod to cast an unrolling loop of line that will efficiently carry the fly to the target).What does a new instructor need to know about casting in order to give a relative novice an effective lesson?
You can certainly do “try this” but self organisation will still fine tune the movement for the individual. It has to because we are all snowflakesYet we also talk about athlete self-organisation through constraints. Sometimes it’s just a hell of a lot easier and quicker to say to an athlete “try this”. Are the results for self-organisation so compelling that this is always a better way?……… At the end of the day, we are not puppet masters pulling the strings, so it is all self-organization at a basic level.
