Learning v Performance

[VGB]

So you’re tweaking your timing until you see a straight fly leg?

[Phil Blackmar]

Yes. But here may be where you and I differ Vince, I'm also identifying what I want to feel. Putting the two together to be used in concentration when the objective is a fish or target. My concentration process centers on tying together pictures, words and feels until all words disappear and I'm left with pictures and feels. The feels are not points in time, they are more general.

Most of my practice relates to performance.

[VGB]

Where we differ Phil is that I accept the scientific position that we are a visually dominant multi sensory entity and as instructors, we should be leveraging off this to teach. What you are trying to describe is called the flow state and relates to yourself not teaching someone else.

Most of my practice relates to performance.

Performance can be positive or negative, it doesn’t provide an indication of learning taking place.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3900#p71456

[Phil Blackmar]

Hello Vince-

Where we differ Phil is that I accept the scientific position that we are a visually dominant multi sensory entity and as instructors, we should be leveraging off this to teach. What you are trying to describe is called the flow state and relates to yourself not teaching someone else.

I don't think we differ as much as it has appeared on these forums. I think in reality we both use vision plus external cues more than other senses and internal cues, but we also use internal cues when necessary. One place we may differ is I like to ASK students what they feel and what feels different so they can become more in touch with all their senses. I never tell a student what they should feel, however.

[/quote]Performance can be positive or negative, it doesn’t provide an indication of learning taking place.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3900#p71456

I'm just going to leave this one with you.

All the best
Phil

[VGB]

One place we may differ is I like to ASK students what they feel and what feels different so they can become more in touch with all their senses.

I ask them how it felt, so I can use their language to make associations between intent and outcome.

Regards
Vince

[VGB]

Hi John

Apologies for the late response, I’ve been walking in and around the New Forest and didn’t have the time to understand your post:

If I understand the paper (now that's a stretch), I can only agree with the chart. It summarises the phases I am going through when learning a very different (not tuning and not "Performance refinement - Refinement of existing, correct technique based upon….??? " ) movement patterns and the ones I hope to proceed to. At the moment I am very much in the performance drop phase.

The one the 5 A paper refers to in the statement

"To deautomate the aspect of technique requiring refinement (hereafter termed the target variable), athletes are required to consciously apply a narrow and internal focus of attention (cf. Wulf, 2013), which enables access to the relevant movement component within the memory trace (Christina & Corcos, 1988)."

I’m a bit confused are you refining an existing technique, or replacing it with something entirely different?

As I've said in previous posts, I will change that internal focus to an external focus when and if, I have achieved the objective referred to by the author in the statement, "In short, a conscious focus seems to be an essential precursor of effective motoric change."

A conscious focus can apply to either internal or external focus of attention.

At the moment I am very much in the phase the author refers to when stating

"Furthermore, when observing such demonstrations, we recommend that athletes employ internal kinesthetic imagery (i.e., “This is how it would feel if I were executing that technique”) to increase the number of retrieval cues within the nonverbal memory coding system (Holmes & Calmals, 2011; Paivio, 1986)…..

Observation not attempting the new technique?

As to whether I move along the line shown in the chart, only time will tell. In my case it is a large tweak.

I think that you are describing Stage 2 Awareness, at which point I tend to be using “Amplification of Errors” and “Old Way, New Way” because I’m usually dealing with erroneous techniques, I don’t think that’s where you are. It would appear that you are trying to replace an existing technique/skill with another to improve your outcome. I wouldn’t suggest that you are caught between 2 stools at the moment, are you still practising your existing competition technique, just in case?

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

It's a little early, especially when speeding up for more distance or into the wind.....Mark's 80 ft shot into a 15 mph wind. If you can get the fly leg perfectly straight, you can make that shot and beyond, but put in to humps and valleys and you'll never make it all the way and layout,


I've been working on this drill for about two weeks now and I'm casting better than every so it sees to be helping...

That’s a similar drill I use for a long elevated carry.

[John Waters]

Hi Vince,

New or replacement? It can't be entirely new because of history, but to all intent and purpose it's new for me.

Observation, yes, I observe myself and others. Myself, attempting the patterning and others who have acquired the skill I am trying to learn and who perform it subconsciously.

I am aware of the transition to future state, analysed the current state, the objective is to learn and apply the new range and sequence of the motion. Have not practised my old way since I left Norway. It's all or nothing now, haha.

John