Casting long leaders

[Paul Arden]

[Paul Arden]

I’ll make one tomorrow. It’s a bit dark now. I did think about it while fishing last week. But then I got sidetracked

[Willy Franzen]

I’ll make one tomorrow. It’s a bit dark now. I did think about it while fishing last week. But then I got sidetracked

I've been doing my best without pictures so far. Haven't had a chance to cast one of my twisted leaders yet, but I have broken a few. 4>2>1 with a J knot and then a triple surgeons loop to tie it to a fence post and pull on it with a Boga. I was able to pull around 16 lbs before breaking, which is impressive with the .013 Trouthunter Big Game Nylon that is rated 17.9 lbs but claims a knot strength of only 13.5 lbs. Oddly enough, every break was in the single section of nylon and not near a knot. That was consistent across a handful of breaks. I did not expect that, and I'm not sure what it means. As you pull on the leader, you can feel a few different stages of stretch before it breaks, which makes sense given the construction of the leader (I think?).

The only bothersome thing was the leader ends up especially tangled once it breaks. So I think I'm doing it right, but pictures would still help to make sure mine looks like it should.

[Paul Arden]

Sorry Willy, I had a crazy day today. Had to move the boat and got stuck into some Board conversations!

I’m surprised that the mono is not breaking at the surgeons. The only time I’ve broken the main line is with Biminis and ten turn half bloods. I wouldn’t expect the twisted section to break. I would imagine after a huge break like that the leader will be catastrophic!

I did do some testing to breaking with 40lb and SA sinking lines. The sinking lines were breaking at 23lbs. The leader was still fine but the mono wasn’t stretched to breaking point.

Tomorow I’ll do a measured step by step!

Cheers, Paul

[Willy Franzen]

I’m surprised that the mono is not breaking at the surgeons. The only time I’ve broken the main line is with Biminis and ten turn half bloods. I wouldn’t expect the twisted section to break. I would imagine after a huge break like that the leader will be catastrophic!

I realized why my single strand of nylon kept breaking a few inches from the surgeon’s loops. The construction fence I was looping my leaders to has a wind screen and either that or part of the fence was catching the line and causing it to break right at the point of contact. I didn’t notice this when I was doing the testing, but I took a few videos and noticed in the slo mo that there was some contact. Now I adjust my testing setup and try again.

[Paul Arden]

I’ve filmed the leader construction and the go pro ran out half way through I filmed the second half on my phone. I’ll check and splice together. Have a lesson now.

Any line breaking close to the knot is a bit suspect for me. It either means I’ve deformed the line when tightening the knot or something else is happening! When a leader breaks with the two knots I mentioned above, it usually breaks near the middle. I’ve heard reports that the Eugene Bend can do the same thing but I’ve never had this occur in testing. I didn’t originally believe it could happen until I had a Bimini vs Bimini “knot-off”.

I try to make the weak link the fly knot with my Snakehead Leaders (and weaker than the flyline!). What I do find if I’m lazy and don’t change it regularly enough, the Slim Beauty connection to the wire becomes the weak link. This takes about a week of laziness on my part.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

Finally!

[Willy Franzen]

Finally!

Thank you! This is extremely helpful.

[Willy Franzen]

I'm back to being confused about knots breaking. So just to be clear about what I'm doing here, I have twisted up a few leaders in Trouthunter .015 most recently (22.5 lb tensile strength and 16.1 lb knot strength). I'm mostly concerned about trusting the strength and stretch of the twisted leaders, as no part before the tippet should break--but I wanted to be sure. I'm very confident that is the case now.

To test my leaders, I'm tying a quick surgeon's loop or perfection loop (alternating) and looping it over a post on a construction fence in my yard and pulling with the Bogagrip. I thought that my tippet was nicking the fence, so I went to the other side where I can be sure that I'm clear of any contact. Every time it breaks maybe 4-6 inches from the knot. This section of the tippet is not involved in the knot, and shouldn't be deformed by the knot at all. Here's what I'm ending up with every time.

You can see another nick in the tippet in the photo. That wasn't there when I started pulling! It's generally breaking a bit over 16 lbs, but sometimes less. I'd expect the loop knot to be failing, but it almost never does. And if it's not a knot failing, I'd expect the tippet to be breaking closer to the 22.5 lbs not the 16.1 lbs knot strength.

I'm not sure this is particularly relevant to twisted leaders beyond the fact that it confirms that creating a twisted leader doesn't create any inherent weak spots, but it's still perplexing.

[Paul Arden]

How old is the tippet, Willy? And was it ever wet? It should be breaking at the perfection loop. It also might be worth having a very close look at the tippet. It’s not unknown for them to be damaged. And of course if it was manufactured some time ago and stored in sunlight then it will be weaker.

16lb knot strength and even 22lb tensile strength can always be taken with a large pinch of salt. Knot strength depends on the knot — not all knots are equal! And as far as manufacturers’ strength claims on the spool, this can be complete fantasy! I have one spool in Malaysia that says… “breaking strains tested on fish”!! WTF does that even mean??

James did lots of testing of knots in his FPs some years ago. He has an Instron in his office

Cheers, Paul