Old way, new way.

[Lasse Karlsson]

Hi Bernd

Significant is not clear, it's damn near impossible to nail down what that means. is it 5, 10, 20, 45 or 90 degrees? And that would only be for a what some would call a single spey cast back then, not spey casting in general. And that confussion is alot older than 20 years, lots older.

Cheers
Lasse

[Paul Arden]

I agree and think that the word “significant” is redundant. A “change of direction dynamic roll cast” is sufficient. As soon as you put the word “significant” in there you need to explain what that means. The very fact that the words “change of direction” are included means that is significant otherwise they wouldn’t be there.

Are we in another thread?!

[Bernd Ziesche]

I agree and think that the word “significant” is redundant. A “change of direction dynamic roll cast” is sufficient. As soon as you put the word “significant” in there you need to explain what that means. The very fact that the words “change of direction” are included means that is significant otherwise they wouldn’t be there.

Hi Paul,
So you agree with Lasse, that significant means nothing really, because it's not put in a certain number.
But then you explain, that when COD is included, significant is included, too.

We are on SL, mate. Topics can be side tracked at times. Old way, new way matches anyway.

Hi Lasse,
Paul's def for me includes a Jump roll.
The older Spey definitions did not intend to.
For me that was clear. 45 and 90 degrees and everything in between was classical in Spey casting on the river Spey. If it is little less, fine with me.
But a Jump roll cast with a 5 or 10 degree COD is not Spey casting to me. I have no need to define significant in numbers. The word is clear enough to me.
Point is, that especially those Forward "Speys" without the intention to change direction aren't Spey casting for me. Just me of course.
Its just, that when we dont define things, what did we do 30 years here?
Cheers
B

[Paul Arden]

For me a Spey cast is when the anchor is turned to form a new direction. But I don’t think that needs to be in the definition.

[VGB]

All of the casts involve a CoD or you get a collision; ergo, all waterborne casts are Welsh throws.

[VGB]

Even the ballet dancers know more than us

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4805647/

An exploration of the role of the neuromotor system in motor learning and the acquisition of expert skills reveals the roles of sensory awareness, imagery, and intention in cuing efficient, expressive movement. It also indicates potentially detrimental effects of conscious muscle control, explicit learning and persistent naïve beliefs. Finally, the paper presents a new theory regarding the acquisition of ballet skills. Recontextualization theory proposes that placing a problematic task within a new context may engender a new conceptual approach and/or sensory intention, and hence the genesis of new motor programs; and that these new programs may lead to performance that is more efficient, more rewarding for the dancer, more pleasing aesthetically, and more expressive. From an anecdotal point of view, this theory appears to be supported by the progress of many dancers at various stages of their dancing lives.

[easterncaster]

As language moves and morphs as too does casting and in this case the definition of Spey casts, which includes original purpose, developments and insights since. To me, It is not a matter of Oh you're changing your mind ; it's a matter of recognition, acknowledging developments and their progression.

A Jump roll with a 5-10º CoD is a shallow Single. A Jump roll with 0º CoD is simply a Single lacking CoD. It goes by two names, fine by me.

[Lasse Karlsson]

Hi Lasse,
Paul's def for me includes a Jump roll.
The older Spey definitions did not intend to.
For me that was clear. 45 and 90 degrees and everything in between was classical in Spey casting on the river Spey. If it is little less, fine with me.
But a Jump roll cast with a 5 or 10 degree COD is not Spey casting to me. I have no need to define significant in numbers. The word is clear enough to me.
Point is, that especially those Forward "Speys" without the intention to change direction aren't Spey casting for me. Just me of course.
Its just, that when we dont define things, what did we do 30 years here?
Cheers
B

Hi Bernd

Why the personal need to define speycasting as COD only? It didn't develop on the river spey, some dude just had better marketing than where it originated. We know that, so ignoring it seems like a bit stupid. It has no value as a definition, it's anchored casts, where the anchor is turned. Roll casts, speycasts, underhand casts, andersson casts, messed up belgian, ups gebetroiter casts, skagit etc. it's all good. Just call them watercasts. Unless of course, someone has a vested interest in making things harder and less accesible than it needs to be.. But that just seems mean, don't you think?

A 120 feet 10 degree jumproll puts the fly out into the river as far as a 30 foot 45 degree single spey, they both cover the same fish?

SL isn't 30 yet, and it's only 17 years ago you came on here not beliving it was possible to throw 120 feet with a 5 weight in still conditions

Cheers
Lasse

[Bernd Ziesche]

Why the personal need to define speycasting as COD only?

Hi Lasse,
I asked for the current definitions, because I like to follow changes in how things are defined.
It wasn't my personal need to define it that way, it was many other instructors who did include the COD long ago.

But that just seems mean, don't you think?

A 120 feet 10 degree jumproll puts the fly out into the river

Seems mean to me when your student might fail in the FFI Master TH exam, because per definition in that exam sheet the Jump roll/Switch cast allows for NO COD.

But that's just one example. They have defs for mends, casts, roll casts, Spey casts and more, which a candidate better should know.

17 years ago you came on here not beliving it was possible to throw 120 feet with a 5 weight in still conditions

I am afraid I missed your point in this.
Cheers
B

P.s.: Sure we can go without defs. But I see a serious number of links to defs in every thread here.

[Stoatstail50]

My personal view is that Old way, new way, is a really useful instructional tool to have in your box. Whereas knowing whether a jump roll is a Spey cast or not is of no bloody instructional use whatsoever.