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Structuring multiple lessons

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VGB
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Re: Structuring multiple lessons

#11

Post by VGB »

I don’t agree however that it’s always the case that it’s an instructors fault if a caster goes down that track.
One of mine went down this path on their own last weekend, he was naturally very analytical and detail orientated individual. I think we default to it as instructors because it’s an obvious shortcut but then we have to deal with the fallout which generally seems to be freezing behaviour. I’m conscious of this issue and try to use near external cues, the rod tube became a prop for an early rotation demo.

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Vince
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VGB
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Re: Structuring multiple lessons

#12

Post by VGB »

Paul Arden wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:13 am But it doesn’t seem to matter if we introduce Speys before Presentations, or Wind Casts before Shots. Bow and Arrow Cast and B&A Rolls can be included anywhere, although the most logical place to insert them is in Presentations.
I don’t have the opportunity to do structured training this way but it may be something that I will have to do if I start doing more club activities. To avoid frustration, I tend to do something a bit off piste if we get stuck on a skill and the student has the capacity to do something different. Like you have found, the results are often surprising with a step change in progress.

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Vince
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Paul Arden
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Re: Structuring multiple lessons

#13

Post by Paul Arden »

Hi Mark,

Of course, but when you are the boss of a company manufacturing a product and it fails, then it’s your responsibility even though technically it was a worker on the assembly line! (Boeing) I’m not saying we can always avoid it. I think it probably happens to every student at some point. I’ve certainly had my casting fall apart and to some extent I think it’s part of the process. The trick is to not keep banging our heads against the wall hoping that a hole appears because chances are it’s just going to give us a headache! Much better to walk away and do something else and come back to the wall later to see if the doorway has appeared.
It’s really hard to avoid this if the usual sources of advice imply that instructor feedback to the student should be mainly body centric. I can still feel myself squirming up in an effort not to do it in lessons. You know that, if you do say something about body motion, this is very likely to generate paralysis by analysis but, because we’ve all been trained in a system that encourages it…I still want to do it on a “seen it,say it” principle. Obviously, instructors are analysing body movement all the time and this, at the end of the day is what we’re teaching. With respect to how we teach it, in one to one instruction, indirect methods are likely to be significantly more effective than direct ones.
Totally. It’s very difficult to avoid. That’s not to say we can’t ever do it, but if we do then we need provide an analogy or cue that fits to be the focus for the very next cast.

I’ve been using video analysis in some lessons. The student is watching themselves and their movement. This is them focusing on their body movement. It can be effective but it’s not going to solve the problem without an external cue that fits the pattern we want to create. And it doesn’t always work either.

It’s certainly challenging. With students who keep falling into this trap, I think it’s a good idea to explain why it’s happening and what we are trying to achieve, which is training their movements such they occur autonomically when the big fish appears.

Cheers, Paul
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Stoatstail50
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Re: Structuring multiple lessons

#14

Post by Stoatstail50 »


It’s certainly challenging. With students who keep falling into this trap, I think it’s a good idea to explain why it’s happening and what we are trying to achieve, which is training their movements such they occur autonomically when the big fish appears.
Agree that too…starting to agree with you almost as much as Lasse does.🙂

It is perfectly possible to go through a lesson without ever giving a body centric instruction. I’m not sure it’s totally desirable but, once you get the hang of it, it’s not at all difficult. Personally, I don’t think there’s any point in trying to totally exclude it because it has been my experience, at the levels I’m usually instructing anyway, that most of the useful body centric stuff is related to how we stand. So, I’m going to ask someone to move their feet or shift weight from one foot to the other…because it’s easier for me, it’s lazy and it’s an opportunity to banter a bit on how to boogie 😁

Pretty much all the rest, wrists, shoulders, elbows etc can be done without if you think I carefully about what you’re asking a caster to do.

Unfortunately this is a bit counterintuitive, it’s easy to imagine that a direct instruction to move this or that joint or limb will produce the desired result. In many cases it might…but usually at the expense of some other joint or limb which, in turn, introduces discontinuities elsewhere in the cycle.

Almost everyone reading this who is regularly instructing will surely have experienced this, it’s like whack a mole but with joints. It’s not totally avoidable because freezing happens to a certain extent with any new problem but it can certainly be vastly minimised.
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Re: Structuring multiple lessons

#15

Post by Stoatstail50 »

Back to your original point Paul. I have never taught a beginner to Spey cast first but this must surely happen on a regular basis for DH instructors on the big waters. In some respects it would be a good place to start because there is more coordinated whole body movement required in the casting cycle for speys.

That’s what is often missing in casters who have learned that rigid overhead mono stroke. So, if you teach someone stuck in a rut, a whole new cast which requires more coordinated body movement from the feet up, it’s quite likely you’ll be able to bring it back over to disrupt the old performance habit and improve functional stability a bit in the overheads.

I think there’s simpler ways to do this than going the whole hog and teaching Speys but teaching Speys definitely has the advantage on keeping the lesson on the fishing.
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Paul Arden
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Re: Structuring multiple lessons

#16

Post by Paul Arden »

It is perfectly possible to go through a lesson without ever giving a body centric instruction. I’m not sure it’s totally desirable but, once you get the hang of it, it’s not at all difficult.
Yep I agree and mostly my beginners’ lessons are not focused on the body at all nowadays. At least not from their perspective. They usually always ask for “proper technique”, how should they be moving their elbow etc.? I’m like, you tell me :D But that’s what it really is; they need to explore for themselves. Stick the arm in the air and wave it about like a windscreen wiper and see what happens to the loop. If they haven’t tried that then I want them to do so.

I think this changes later on, certainly it does for me, because ultimately it’s body movement that we are coaching.

I get rather a lot of experienced fly anglers as students, for example, who don’t use the wrist. This has happened because either they have been taught not to use the wrist, or because it’s something they have read. It’s certainly unnatural to throw a ball with a frozen wrist, but for flycasting it’s often (bizarrely) taught this way.

So then the problem is how to unfreeze it? Lift and Flip Drill is a good one, where the forearm blocks and momentum transfers to the hand/rod. We can give imaginary or even real targets, but I think for this particular change to happen there needs to be some focus on the body movement itself. Basically I think we are correcting poor teaching.

In other words, to correct a fault that has been mistakenly installed using internal focus, we need to shift attention back to how the body moves. Sure we can say imagine that sleeve collar strikes an imaginary rubber block (external focus), and then flip the rod butt towards a bell (external focus), but I think that the student needs to be aware of what we are trying to accomplish, particularly when it’s body movement that has been taught to them another way and is preventing their advancement.

With advanced students we can get highly technical and they will absorb it. But we still need to break everything into drills. And that’s a better way of doing it because we are teaching a drill and not trying to directly change an existing movement pattern within a cast. Then we can transfer the movement across.

We have a common student, incidentally, who has this problem. Training the slow to fast MCI exercise they can’t generate enough speed from their forearm to create the fast loops, and so end up shifting weight to try make this happen. That’s a weakness of the frozen wrist approach. The speed has to come from somewhere!

Cheers, Paul
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Re: Structuring multiple lessons

#17

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

Paul Arden wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 1:03 pm
We have a common student, incidentally, who has this problem. Training the slow to fast MCI exercise they can’t generate enough speed from their forearm to create the fast loops, and so end up shifting weight to try make this happen. That’s a weakness of the frozen wrist approach. The speed has to come from somewhere!

Cheers, Paul
Hi Paul

Sorry to butt in, but what MCI excercise is that?

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Lasse
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Re: Structuring multiple lessons

#18

Post by Paul Arden »

I suppose it’s Part 2 Task 6. I’m not mentoring, just giving my thought on the videos that I’m being sent :D Actually that task is the best one and should be most of the exam IMO.

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Re: Structuring multiple lessons

#19

Post by Lasse Karlsson »

That's curved line presentation. If its the slow-medium-fast falsecasting, then that's CI task 8, and yeah, agree on the importance of that task, it shows much more than most realise.

And yeah, don't mentor anymore either, can't mentor impossible :D

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Re: Structuring multiple lessons

#20

Post by Stoatstail50 »

It’s any task that requires an increase in linespeed Lasse, changing planes as an example. It’s not just about mentoring though, it’s about instructing in general.

If the basic casting stroke is cramping a casters capacity to vary it then they have to learn how to change it so they can. In some quarters, here and in the US, the practice is to teach a basic stroke which is highly limiting. I don’t really understand why.
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